Why don't Mormons catch as much crap as Scientologists for their crazy beliefs?

Great Debates
141

FriarTed, I understand that. But since it’s all supposed to have happened before the universe existed, I don’t really agree with the horror. I’d be happy to discuss it further, but I just went over to my bookcase and discovered that the book I want isn’t there, I bet I lent it to my mom. So it would have to wait until tomorrow.

JustThinkin, I totally understand what you mean. I’ve gotten over it now, though. :slight_smile: I know that the people who ask that question usually mean “Are you an evanglical or fundamentalist Christian, and Catholics definitely don’t count?” --But OTOH I’m not sure that their personal definition of “Christian” is my problem. It’s not their word.

It’s a lot like when people ask you if you’re saved. Did you ever get that one? A Mormon’s natural reaction is to sort of go “…I don’t know?” Because to a Mormon, that question translates to “Are you going to the Celestial Kingdom when you die?” And of course you can’t say. Mormons are like the ancient Greeks, they can’t say they’re happy until they’re safely good and dead. But what that question really means is “Do you have a testimony of Jesus Christ?” And the answer to that ought to be “Yes!” So now I just say that–it’s not my problem that the person asking wouldn’t agree with me.
I’ve never lived in Utah. I’ve heard the stories. And I’ve had lots of Utah folks defend themselves and say that it’s only a few who act like that, and they’re very hurt by those generalizations. shrug It’s like a lot of groups when they get into the majority; half the time they don’t realize how they’re acting, I suppose. There are a lot of major sermons about it. At any rate, I can truthfully say that I don’t think I’d enjoy living in Utah; I’m no good at all at being in the majority, but I’m great at being the stubborn oddball.

142

I’d like to clarify for anyone who cares just why Mormons get so irritated when people tell them they’re not Christian. It’s not because we want so badly to be accepted into the club, or because we particularly feel the need for approval. It’s more like the irritation many Dopers feel when someone says “Did you know that a duck’s quack doesn’t echo?!?” Or when you get an email that forwards some stupid UL for the zillionth time. It’s not accurate, and it’s irritating to have other people trying to define your beliefs for you. Mormons say “We are too Christian!” in just the same way you send off a link to Snopes.

At any rate, I won’t be around for the rest of the day. Bye.

143

[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Tithing is a financial operation. They demand tithing.
[/QUOTE]

For what it’s worth, my point was not that Mormons don’t request money, but that they don’t go out seeking converts with financial gain as their main intent.

144

[QUOTE=beckwall]
Lived in Salt Lake City for a year, not an expert on the subject but would like to chime in. In most of the rest of the country, Mormons are as described above. Leave them alone, tell them no and they will respect your wishes. In SLC, if you don’t go to their ward house, then you will not be invited into their home, into their conversations at work, into anything they are doing. And then there are the SLC “Jack Mormons”, those who drink heavily and go home to kick the dog and beat the wife.

So generally speaking, most of the country does not see anything to get down on when it comes to the Church of LDS. But try living in their midst, when you are the minority, and you might come up with some other conclusions.
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I grew up in a small town in Northern Utah and moved to CA when I was sixteen. I lived in the Bay Area for 2 years and Los Angeles for 5 years, then moved back to SLC about 15 months ago. I’m stuck here for the foreseeable future, and SLC isn’t entirely my favorite place to be. However, I’ve never had these problems. SLC is actually a pretty pleasant place to live. Plenty of bars and clubs. Plenty of places to shop. Plenty of good restaurants. Plenty of things to do on a Saturday night. Plenty of nice people to talk to. 99.9% of the time, I don’t even remember I’m living in the reddest state in the union.

NOTE: I am only referring to Salt Lake City here. I don’t pretend that Utah is an easy place to live for non-Mormons. Once you get out of the major population centers (and Park City), then you can find a lot of pockets of backwards people. Unfortunately, I know this because most of my family live in such areas.

But then, maybe I blend better. I’m an atheist, but I was raised in the LDS Church and know their ways. Honestly, I got harassed more by members and missionaries when I lived in So Cal (there is a HUGE Mormon population in San Bernardino and everybody was a Mormon where my husband worked).

Now, Provo on the other hand…there is something seriously wrong with Provo. I hate visiting my sister down there. You couldn’t pay me enough to live down there.

145

[QUOTE=VCO3]
I was doing a little research on Mormonism lately after they came to my door and dropped off one of those books, and those people believe some craaaaaaaaaaaazay stuff! A good deal of it is Zardoz-level stuff like the Scientologists, but the Mormons don’t seem to catch as much crap in the public eye. Why?
[/QUOTE]

I’m comin’ in late here, but exactly what do the Mormons believe? For such a tightly-controlled bunch, it seems surprisingly tricky to get a simple list of core beliefs. On the Protestant side (my heritage) the evolution of beliefs has simply resulted in dozens of sects. For Mormons, though, official theology seems to reside with the honchos–in theory there is a collection of specific, official current beliefs, is there not?

So what is that set of beliefs? Is it publicly available to all? Are there core beliefs which are hidden from all but deep insiders? I have found it amazingly tricky to get a list of (current) beliefs, particularly ones that are at substantial odds with traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant theology. The proselytizing strategy seems to be “We are a variant of Christianity” with the more extreme “variations” being revealed only once someone takes the bait.

IMHO Mormons get as much crap for their secrecy as they do for the nuttiness of their beliefs, since as has been pointed out in many responses, any given religious belief is nutty once it steps beyond science and evidence.

Monty? Bueller? Anyone? Anyone? Do I get a shot at being God on my own planet, or not? Did God used to be a Regular Guy? And so on…

146

[QUOTE=Chief Pedant]
I’m comin’ in late here, but exactly what do the Mormons believe? For such a tightly-controlled bunch, it seems surprisingly tricky to get a simple list of core beliefs. On the Protestant side (my heritage) the evolution of beliefs has simply resulted in dozens of sects. For Mormons, though, official theology seems to reside with the honchos–in theory there is a collection of specific, official current beliefs, is there not?

[/QUOTE]

If you have time to watch, PBS has an informative documentary, and I’ll throw in a healthy dose of critical review to read after the broadcast.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070514/howl

147

[QUOTE=Chief Pedant]
I’m comin’ in late here, but exactly what do the Mormons believe? For such a tightly-controlled bunch, it seems surprisingly tricky to get a simple list of core beliefs. On the Protestant side (my heritage) the evolution of beliefs has simply resulted in dozens of sects. For Mormons, though, official theology seems to reside with the honchos–in theory there is a collection of specific, official current beliefs, is there not?
[/quote]
Yep; it’s the scriptures and the current teachings of the prophet. Critics do complain that figuring out Mormon doctrine is like nailing Jello to the wall! We tend to resist lists and we don’t have a catechism or anything like that.

No, there aren’t ‘secret’ beliefs. We don’t talk about what happens in the temple, but the actual theology of the temple isn’t any different than what you get on Sundays.

The closest thing we have to a creed is the Articles of Faith, a short summary of basic beliefs written by Joseph Smith. Children memorize them and so on.

A longer summary work is Gospel Principles which details all the basic theology of the gospel. It’s a textbook, not scripture, and it’s used in Sunday School for new members. I’m currently going through it with my 7yo daughter so that she knows everything before she gets baptized next summer.

You could also look at the Sunday School manuals for regular members if you like. All teaching materials, and of course all the scriptures, are now available online. The final authority in the LDS Church is the scriptures and the prophet, that’s it. Anything else is just commentary and opinion.

Perhaps this FAQwill help you out with those questions?

If you’re really curious about how Mormons think, you might like to take a look at some of the more theological blogs on the Bloggernacle. Issues are minutely dissected and discussed, and they’re easy to find. You might like to look at Times and Seasons, Millennial Star, or By Common Consent.

148

[QUOTE=dangermom]
We don’t talk about what happens in the temple
[/QUOTE]

This made me curious.

Why not talk about what happens in the temple?

Most other major religions (Christianity, Islam, etc) have very open ceremonies. Why would one religion have secret ceremonies?

After some Googling, I found this
http://www.exmormon.org/templex.htm

Secret ceremonies, secret handshakes, passwords, masonic-like rituals, etc

Mormonism seems more like a cult than a religion.

149

[QUOTE=Polerius]
Mormonism seems more like a cult than a religion.
[/QUOTE]

More from that website

150

[QUOTE=dangermom]
Perhaps this FAQwill help you out with those questions?
[/QUOTE]

Just a quick note: Jeff Lindsay’s site is very open about being an apologetic site, so clearly it tells the side of the story from a devout Mormon perspective.

And it does have a few factual errors; for instance, the page discussing temple sealing and divorce says that, after a divorce, members who have been sealed together in the temple (also known as “temple marriage” or “eternal marriage,” for those who aren’t familiar with LDS practices) have to get a “cancellation of sealing,” which is basically the equivalent of a “temple divorce,” before they can be sealed to somebody else. But the Church Handbook of Instructions (which is essentially the manual that bishops get to tell them how to run the ward) says that only women have to get a cancellation of sealing; men have to get a “sealing clearance.” Which means men can be sealed to more than one living woman, but women can’t be sealed to more than one living man.

151

[QUOTE=Polerius]
More from that website
[/QUOTE]

Most of the “scary” or “offensive” parts of the temple ceremony were deleted in 1990, for what it’s worth.

152

[QUOTE=dangermom]
Ralph124c, I don’t have time for a real discussion of the BoA, nor do I think that this thread is the right place for that discussion. The short version is: it’s a lot more complicated than you realize. But here are some links for you to peruse. Read and enjoy!

A complex but thorough dissection of BoA criticisms
A simpler FAQ version
The FAIR wiki version
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The best non-apologetic resource I’ve found about the whole Book of Abraham story is Charles Larson’s By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus. It’s written from a Christian perspective, but it does a pretty good job of staying mostly neutral and factual until the last chapter, when he writes about how Mormons need to be saved and blah blah blah. The book also has full color fold-out pictures of the Joseph Smith papyrii that were discovered in New York in the 1960’s, which are really spectacular. The pictures alone would be worth the price of the book … but if you go here you can request a free copy (but only if you’re LDS, since this is another Christian “save the Mormons” site…) or even read the book online (but without the pictures and charts, sadly).

Larson goes into great detail about the papyrii and the whole story, which is a fascinating tale whether you believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet or just a nut.

153

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
I think the question is, are Mormons expected to donate 10% of their income to the Church, or are they not? (And what is a “temple recommend”?)

[reverend lovejoy]

And tithing means ten percent of gross, not net! Don’t make me start auditing you!

[/rj]
[/QUOTE]

Apologies if somebody already answered your question, but I didn’t see anybody answer it.

Yes, mainstream Mormons are expected to donate 10% of their income to the church. And every bishop I’ve ever had has said it’s supposed to be 10% of your gross income, not net, but I understand there are numerous Latter-day Saints who pay it on net income. It’s basically handled on trust; at the end of each year you go in and meet with the bishop, he shows you how much you’ve paid, and you tell him “Yes, that makes me a full tithe payer,” or “I didn’t pay the full 10% … that only makes me a partial tithe payer.” Unless your bishop happens to be your accountant (like my parents’ bishop was until two months ago when he was released), they’ll just take your word for it.

If you aren’t a full tithe payer, you can’t get a temple recommend. This is basically the “permission slip” that says you can go to the temple and participate in the ceremonies performed there; practically speaking, the most important of these are the endowment, where you learn things necessary to be exalted in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom after resurrection, and the sealing, where you are sealed to your spouse for eternity. Having a temple marriage and being sealed together for eternity is pretty much the whole point of existence in Mormonism, because eternal marriage is necessary for exaltation, so essentially yes, believing Mormons have to pay their tithing.

154

[QUOTE=dangermom]
Yep; it’s the scriptures and the current teachings of the prophet. Critics do complain that figuring out Mormon doctrine is like nailing Jello to the wall! We tend to resist lists and we don’t have a catechism or anything like that.
No, there aren’t ‘secret’ beliefs. We don’t talk about what happens in the temple, but the actual theology of the temple isn’t any different than what you get on Sundays.

The closest thing we have to a creed is the Articles of Faith, a short summary of basic beliefs written by Joseph Smith. Children memorize them and so on.

A longer summary work is Gospel Principles which details all the basic theology of the gospel. It’s a textbook, not scripture, and it’s used in Sunday School for new members. I’m currently going through it with my 7yo daughter so that she knows everything before she gets baptized next summer.

You could also look at the Sunday School manuals for regular members if you like. All teaching materials, and of course all the scriptures, are now available online. The final authority in the LDS Church is the scriptures and the prophet, that’s it. Anything else is just commentary and opinion.

Perhaps this FAQwill help you out with those questions?

If you’re really curious about how Mormons think, you might like to take a look at some of the more theological blogs on the Bloggernacle. Issues are minutely dissected and discussed, and they’re easy to find. You might like to look at Times and Seasons, Millennial Star, or By Common Consent.
[/QUOTE]

Many thanks. I found these helpful.
The neat thing about theology is that you can say anything you want–even exactly opposite things in the same sentence–and it feels like you’ve clarified the Church’s position.

Some examples from the FAQ site:

“It is true that we believe the Father and the Son are separate beings, but they are one and comprise, with the Holy Ghost, one united Godhead.”

“The concept of man becoming “like God” or “as God” is thoroughly, solidly Biblical and Christian - but it doesn’t mean becoming exactly like Him.”

“…the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.” “…He then considers the word “continuance” and notes that its usage in the scriptures (Ps. 139:16, Is. 64:5, and Rom. 2:7) does not indicate totality of duration, but progress in advance of an earlier stage.”

“It’s wrong to say that science can prove or disprove the sacred text of any religion…”

I’m not putting these out there to debate them or criticize the theology; only to point out how impossible it is to pin down what anyone actually thinks. This is, of course, no different for any other religion than it is for the LDS folks.

Priase God for the English language which will keep religion alive indefinitely. What you thought I said is not what I said, exactly.

155

What’s the difference between those who go door to door to convert others to their beliefs (Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons) and Christian missionaries who go country to country to convert others to their beliefs?

156

[QUOTE=chorpler]
This is basically the “permission slip” that says you can go to the temple and participate in the ceremonies performed there; practically speaking, the most important of these are the endowment, where you learn things necessary to be exalted in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom after resurrection
[/QUOTE]

My question is, why keep it a secret what needs to be done to be “exalted in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom after resurrection”?

In Christianity, they say pretty clearly, to anyone, what you need to do to go to Heaven. I assume Islam and the other religions do so as well, concerning whatever state-after-death they each consider to be best.

Basically, if you “know” how human beings can get to some great state after death, why keep that a secret?

(and what’s worse, a secret that you can get to only after paying money)

157

[QUOTE=Polerius]
My question is, why keep it a secret what needs to be done to be “exalted in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom after resurrection”?

In Christianity, they say pretty clearly, to anyone, what you need to do to go to Heaven. I assume Islam and the other religions do so as well, concerning whatever state-after-death they each consider to be best.

Basically, if you “know” how human beings can get to some great state after death, why keep that a secret?

(and what’s worse, a secret that you can get to only after paying money)
[/QUOTE]

First, it’s not as if paying tithing is the only requirement for a temple recommend. There’s a whole list; you have to be living right to go to the temple, because what you mostly do there is make more promises to live even more right.

I will now tell you the secret of how to go to the Celestial Kingdom!

First, love the Lord your God with all your might, mind, and strength.
Then, love your neighbor as yourself. Be kind, give to others, love everyone.
Since you love God, obey His commandments (see #2 above). Part of this is getting baptized.
If you are keeping 1, 2, and 3, you can go to the temple to be sealed to your family.
Now keep doing all of those for the rest of your life. You will screw up, so repent a lot. Yay, you win!
I’ve been busy all day and now I’m going to be more busy, so this is all I can manage for now. Someday I would like to solve the mystery of why huge long threads about Mormons always seem to show up at Christmas time!

158

[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Only about 150 years old. History sandblasting has not been completed yet. We can still find Smiths goofiness in text. It will be erased in a century or so.
[/QUOTE]

Will they be erasing all the nonsense about golden plates, comically named angels and anthropology too?

In my darker moments I look at these made-up-before-our-very-eyes religions and think, ‘I could do that.’ Make some money, get some gullible women.

Then I sink into dark despair that anyone can look at the history of these quack cults and the self-evident, gold plated bullshit they espouse and not just point and laugh.

But I guess you are right.

159

[QUOTE=Hail Ants]
I believe that was Scarlett Johanson, and it was even worse than that. They had dinner alone together, although Cruise rambled on about the great god Xenu thru the whole thing. Johanson continued to smile politely until Cruise opened a set of double doors revealing the gaggle of Scientology grand-high-exalted-mystic rulers. At which point she sort of freaked and asked to leave.

Plus, the point of the date was Cruise was offering her the femme fatale lead in Mission Impossible 3, a role which would have earned her over $10 mil and shot her to super A-list status. She turned it down solely because of the Scientology nonsense!
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I’ve heard this repeatedly, but have never read any direct interview or quote. Is there a cite on this?

160

[QUOTE=Airblairxxx]
It’s suspected, but hasn’t been confirmed, that there is already at least one Scientologist in Congress already.
[/QUOTE]
BURN HER!! :mad:

(I’m kidding. But that is scary.)