# Why don't non-skeptics care? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2001, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482 "2001-09-18T23:10:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/41 "2001-10-04T12:07:54Z")
But what about claimants like Hastur who repeatedly make the claim of having psychic powers or knowing someone who has psychic powers, and agree to some sort of testing, then back out, using the flimsiest excuses? ---
**Author:** ![dlb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@dlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dlb)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/42 "2001-10-04T13:34:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Irishman \* > dlb said: > > > [@](#): > > > > More directly: the thought experiment is doomed to failure from the start because any test to separate “real” from “fake” psychics must be based on a test that determines if “real” psychics exist, which is the assumption of the thought experiment. Thought experiments don’t work if the experiment questions their basic assumptions; they just kind of fold up and chase their own tails. > > Um, okay. What thought experiment? The thought experiment in the OP. You can’t debate on the boards without paying attention to context. If you want to vent polemic, be my guest; however, don’t pretend to misunderstand what people say based on the context of the posts if you want to be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/43 "2001-10-04T22:56:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > > **The over-simplified version is that I believe in God because I see too much of order and goodness in the world to be just a product of randomness;** > > Why can’t order come from randomness? \*\* It can, to a limited extent. However, Jodi’s belief is clearly that there is _too much_ order to be attributed to randonmess. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/44 "2001-10-04T23:16:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*But what about claimants like Hastur who repeatedly make the claim of having psychic powers or knowing someone who has psychic powers, and agree to some sort of testing, then back out, using the flimsiest excuses? \*\* Imagine you are an atheist in a country dominated by fundies. The fundies challenge your views and propose to test them, with a panel of senior fundies sitting in judgment. At first, you think “my views are strong and correct, I can defend them against all comers and prove once and for all that my position is viable, even if I do live in a fundie dominated society”. But then the more you discuss it, the more you realise that their ideas of proof and logic are the antithesis of your own, and you don’t stand a chance. Is the behaviour you attribute to Hastur surprising really? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/45 "2001-10-05T02:18:37Z")
You’re not proposing that atheists are the dominant social class in the U.S., are you? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/46 "2001-10-05T02:34:05Z")
Hell no. My example was supposed to illustrate why people with the views you attribute to Hastur might behave the way they do on these boards, given the dominant social class here of (hopefully) objectivity, logic, verifiable information etc. Not that personally I would want them to be any other way… ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/47 "2001-10-05T19:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*It can, to a limited extent. However, Jodi’s belief is clearly that there is _too much_ order to be attributed to randonmess. \*\* What are the limitations? How much is too much? ---
**Author:** ![Tominator2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e36b37/32.png) [@Tominator2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tominator2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/48 "2001-10-05T20:54:56Z")
> [@](#): > > When Martin Gardner’s book Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science was published, Martin Gardner received a lot of letters that ran along the lines of, “I’m glad you did such a good job debunking all those other nonsensical pseudosciences, but you’re wrong about {bigfoot, orgone, telepathy, pyramid power, etc.}. That’s for real.” Given that Bigfoot, orgone, telepathy, pyramid power, etc., are all separate propositions, doesn’t it make sense that people would decide on their truth/falsity independently? > [@](#): > > Against that background, what sense does it make to me to weed out using the type of tests a sceptic would apply the psychics that are fake? To push this further, prove that the scientific method is the only way to knowledge. It’s worked well, but past performance is no guarantee of future success. Another thought experiment. Suppose everybody were born with the ability to sense beforehand one important event (a car crash, the death of a loved one, whatever). I’m thinking of the “I just knew the plane I was about to get on was gonna crash” type story. The ability itself is just magical (it’s not some sort of extrapolation or deduction) and infallible. Accept this as a given. Now, devise a scientifically rigorous test to confirm/refute the existence of this ability. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/49 "2001-10-05T21:30:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tominator2 \* > ]To push this further, prove that the scientific method is the only way to knowledge. It’s worked well, but past performance is no guarantee of future success. The scientific method itself will tell you that the scientific method obviously cannot be proven, because nothing in science is ever proven. The whole point of the scientific method is that _every_ idea, the theory of gravity, the greenhouse model, the scientific method itself, must constantly be tested and retested. If it’s working, keep using it, but discard it as soon as it is disproved, or when something better comes along. > [@](#): > > Another thought experiment. Suppose everybody were born with the ability to sense beforehand one important event (a car crash, the death of a loved one, whatever). I’m thinking of the “I just knew the plane I was about to get on was gonna crash” type story. The ability itself is just magical (it’s not some sort of extrapolation or deduction) and infallible. Accept this as a given. Now, devise a scientifically rigorous test to confirm/refute the existence of this ability. When somebody “senses” this impending event, have them write down the prediction, have the statement notarized and sealed, and without informing anyone else, put it in a bank vault controlled by a disinterested party. Count how many times they’re right. There’s some chance for chicanery here, of course–someone predicts, “My husband will die of a heart attack,” and poisons him, or predicts, “My plane will blow up,” and brings a bomb on board–but if _everyone_ has this ability, that’s a large enough sample size that there should be plenty of incidences that cannot be explained by either chance or deliberate mischeif, so it should be obvious whether the ability is really infallible–presuming that “infallible” implies that no one would be under the mistakenly think that they’re making their once-in-a-lifetime prediction when really they’re just having a garden-variety, fallible hunch. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/50 "2001-10-05T23:05:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Given that Bigfoot, orgone, telepathy, pyramid power, etc., are all separate propositions, doesn’t it make sense that people would decide on their truth/falsity independently? Normally, they do (except for the occasional shmoe who believes everything in the _Enquirer_). However, each instance of these “supernatural” events/objects/powers/etc. have consistenly - and independently - suffered from a severe lack of proof. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/51 "2001-10-06T01:57:07Z")
> [@](#): > > In contrast, psychic powers, ESP, astrology, etc., are subjects that are often claimed to be amenable to proof. For example, the assertion that the stars in a particular alignment lead to given personality characteristics, or the assertion that one person can read another’s mind – those are things that can be proven or disproven through objective testing. They are amenable to the challenges of proof. And all the evidence that I have personally seen to date indicates that they are all basically bullshit. So I don’t believe in them. But what if there is some sort of phenomenon analogous to the ones seen at the quantum level? Where when you observe something you change it. Perhaps this could be built into the system. Certain phenomenon can only occur when not directly observed. Wouldn’t that be a funny little line of code for an ironic version of “god” the creator to throw into the mix. Not saying it’s so. Just acknowledgeing that it could be. Things would have been alot easier if reality didn’t get so freaky at the Quantum level. But since it does, I cannot disgard fully the potential that such phenomenon are spread across the system. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/52 "2001-10-06T05:02:03Z")
But, **dalovindj** , if these paranormal phenomena never happen when anybody’s looking, then nobody should ever be aware that any of these phenomena exist, right? So then, if that’s the case, then why did people get the idea that these paranormal phenomena exist in the first place?! ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/53 "2001-10-06T06:53:46Z")
Non-skeptic reporting for duty… I think that some people might posess psychic abilties. I am not positive that these abilties exist, just that they _might_ exist. I think that there might be true psychics that are “in the closet”. They don’t talk about their abilties, or try to market or sell themselves. They might well just be trying to lead as normal a life as possible…blending in…with maybe only a few close family and friends knowing of their abilties, if at all… They might have no desire to be known, or to advance “science”. They may have no need for Randi’s one million bucks. They have the ability, like it or not, and they might give a flying fuck if a message board skeptic believes it or not. 🙂 Krispy ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/54 "2001-10-06T10:04:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krispy Original \* > \*\* > I think that some people might posess psychic abilties. I am not positive that these abilties exist, just that they might exist… > > They might have no desire to be known, or to advance “science”. They may have no need for Randi’s one million bucks. > > They have the ability, like it or not, and they might give a flying fuck if a message board skeptic believes it or not. > > 🙂 > > Krispy \*\* Since 6000 people are dead and hundreds of thousands are losing their livelihoods and a big(?) war is coming, I think all those “true” psychics just showed how useless they are. If they might give a flying f… to a skeptic, they showed the same attitude to the world at large. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/55 "2001-10-06T10:51:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Things would have been alot easier if reality didn’t get so freaky at the Quantum level. But since it does, I cannot disgard fully the potential that such phenomenon are spread across the system. Ah, but then they would not be manifesting themselves on a macro scale. They would be - surprise! - on a quantum scale! You can’t just claim something is possible by adding the word “quantum” to it. Life is not Star Trek. ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/56 "2001-10-06T15:51:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Since 6000 people are dead and hundreds of thousands are losing their livelihoods and a big(?) war is coming, I think all those “true” psychics just showed how useless they are. If they might give a flying f… to a skeptic, they showed the same attitude to the world at large. Useless to who?..you? Hate to burst your bubble, but it’s a cold, hard world out there and it is not incumbent upon anyone to look out for all of mankind…psychic or not. Next. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/57 "2001-10-06T15:53:05Z")
SPOOFE wrote: > [@](#): > > You can’t just claim something is possible by adding the word “quantum” to it. Life is not Star Trek. But maybe it’s possible that life is _quantum_ Star Trek. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/58 "2001-10-06T18:12:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krispy Original \* > Useless to who?..you? Hate to burst your bubble, but it’s a cold, hard world out there and it is not incumbent upon anyone to look out for all of mankind…psychic or not. > > Next. \*\* Hate to tell you this but what you said is the skeptic’s line. I am glad we agree in something. The only nit-pick is that while it is true that only one person can not look out for mankind, that is the reason why we organize to find real solutions to problems… psychics don’t. And no, psychics are not useless to me; otherwise there would be less for skeptics to deal with. * * * “Life is a world of pain your highness, everybody who says differently is trying to sell you something.” – From the Princess bride ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/59 "2001-10-06T22:53:26Z")
I don’t think you understand what I wrote **Gigo**. I’m telling you that you can’t assume that psychic abilities don’t exist by virtue of the fact that someone with said abilities hasn’t stepped forward to prove it to the world…and furthermore, you can’t assume that a person with these abilities would feel responsible to try to change the world (ala your WTC example). Hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2001, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482/60 "2001-10-07T00:04:43Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m telling you that you can’t assume that psychic abilities don’t exist by virtue of the fact that someone with said abilities hasn’t stepped forward to prove it to the world. But we can make the _conclusion_ that there is a _severe lack of evidence_ of psychic powers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-non-skeptics-care/82482.md?page=4)