# Why don't people believe in God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766 "2013-08-21T00:49:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/381 "2013-08-22T01:41:26Z")
> [@Timo](#): > > True. But when something is true, there is no need to understand everything, because the rest are bound to be false. Firstly, this is only true if you’re talking about a set of things that is mutually exclusive . Many Hindus, for instance, are quite happy to pray to photographs of Krishna and Jesus kept side by side. Secondly, and this is far more important, how do you decide whether something is true or not? How do you help others reach your conclusion? Your best answer to “Why do you believe in God” in this thread was “Personal revelation”. That is an acceptable reason for you to believe in God, though not a good one. It is NOT an acceptable reason for someone else to believe in your God, no matter how much you badger them over it. For that, you have to offer up evidence, and good, strong evidence at that. Which no one in the world has yet done. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/382 "2013-08-22T01:42:17Z")
I find it at the very least impractical that God is constantly testing people’s faiths by manipulating daily events but does rarely/never manipulates events for other purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/383 "2013-08-22T01:43:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve been discussing religion on-line twice as long as you’ve been alive. Did you rebut the ontological argument with punchcards back in 1979? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/384 "2013-08-22T01:44:16Z")
> [@Timo](#): > > Oh, haha I didn’t even notice that I typed river. Sorry, my focus wasn’t on where a person was going to be baptized. I was focused on explaining why taking a step to be baptized is considered faith, no matter how small. > > But no…River, lake, swamp, bathtub, back of a truck…I’ve seen all those, shouldn’t matter. Correct me if I’m wrong. First - prove that Baptism is even a requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Timo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c4cdca/32.png) [@Timo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/385 "2013-08-22T01:45:26Z")
> [@simster](#): > > For it to be a trial or test – it must be with something ‘evil’ or ‘bad’ (queue Abraham) or it wouldn’t be much of a test, temptation, etc > > So, old testemant says 'God will test you" - New Testament says “never say god tested you” - so - seems there is a conflict right there you need to figure out. > > Which is it - is God testing you or isn’t he? No…but temptation isn’t the same as a test. In the verse you provided, it specifically said temptation. In the verses I provided, it specifically said tests. Those are different. Yes, maybe a test may have temptations in it, but does that mean those temptations came from God? or you? God just put like… a girl in front of a person…and that person might have lusted. Was it God’s fault that that person lusted? No, it was a test, He just let a girl walk past that person, but that person gave into his sin. God could let a girl walk past another person, but that person might not lust. So it is us that allow ourselves to be tempted. We each have our own flaws and sins and temptations. ---
**Author:** ![Timo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c4cdca/32.png) [@Timo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/386 "2013-08-22T01:48:26Z")
> [@simster](#): > > First - prove that Baptism is even a requirement. Well… I wouldn’t say that it’s a requirement, but it’s how you receive the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit brings understanding and truth. At least understanding in spiritual verses and such. On a cross when Jesus died, there were two sinners next to Him. One asked Jesus to forgive him right there and then, the other mocked, and Jesus told the one that asked for forgiveness that He would go to Heaven with Him. Something like that. I don’t believe that it says that the man was baptized. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/387 "2013-08-22T01:54:22Z")
> [@Timo](#): > > No…but temptation isn’t the same as a test. In the verse you provided, it specifically said temptation. In the verses I provided, it specifically said tests. Those are different. > > Yes, maybe a test may have temptations in it, but does that mean those temptations came from God? or you? God just put like… a girl in front of a person…and that person might have lusted. Was it God’s fault that that person lusted? No, it was a test, He just let a girl walk past that person, but that person gave into his sin. > > God could let a girl walk past another person, but that person might not lust. So it is us that allow ourselves to be tempted. We each have our own flaws and sins and temptations. Didn’t answer the question - is God testing you or not? Testing/Tempting in these cases is one and the same - no amount of blather will change that. Unless you are qualifying a ‘test’ as in how Job was ‘tested’ - something I think there is reference to God saying he would never allow to happen again. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/388 "2013-08-22T01:57:16Z")
> [@Timo](#): > > God could let a girl walk past another person, but that person might not lust. So it is us that allow ourselves to be tempted. We each have our own flaws and sins and temptations. God has to let a girl walk past you? The girl can’t just be trying to get somewhere? God manipulated real world events just to test you and see what your resolve is? Then you have to not just ignore your biological reaction which is solely dependent on chemicals reacting within your brain. Not just ignore. Ignoring is not enough. You have to deny it outright? All the while, atrocities that dwarf your impure thoughts run rampant and unchecked? Or are those just simply bigger tests which man has failed? There is a connection between God tempting you with a pretty girl and God tempting murderers, rapists, and thieves? Everything that happens is a test? Or is it simply things that happen? ---
**Author:** ![Timo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c4cdca/32.png) [@Timo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/389 "2013-08-22T01:57:24Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I find it at the very least impractical that God is constantly testing people’s faiths by manipulating daily events but does rarely/never manipulates events for other purposes. Maybe he does test us all. But those who don’t believe wouldn’t think those tests to be of Him, but maybe of karma or a coincidence? I think the point is that people tend to believe that once they’re Christian they will leave a peaceful life. For doesn’t that kind of give us the feeling that because we live a peaceful life, we don’t need God? But that is surely not true. Because when we are tested, we are tested on our faith, we are tested to wonder if God even loves us, and if we overcome, and look back, we understand why we were tested. We grow stronger in the Lord. We grow stronger in our faith. Something from a website that can explain it better. There was a link of the website posted in a different post. 1. A third purpose for stressful circumstances is to reveal true convictions. Our faith is tested in tough times. It’s easy to say, “God is good,” when life is peaceful. But when everything goes wrong, **what do we believe about Him?** \*\* Do our words and actions reveal an attitude of trust?\*\* King David endured much heartache: a disintegrating family, personal attacks, and betrayal by close friends. But through his trials, he gained deeper intimacy with God, stronger faith, and more godly character. Won’t you let God accomplish His purposes in your present situation? Returning believers to right fellowship is only one of God’s purposes for a season of trials. Some difficulties are meant to blow away all distractions so we can focus our attention on the Lord. Other “storms” break our worldly mold so that we can be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Our personal pleasure is not the top priority. God’s primary concern is to shape a wise and obedient follower who loves Him. 1. One purpose God has for us is a growing intimacy in our relationship with Him. But He knows we struggle to put Him first over our interests. Many of us place higher priority on family and friends than on companionship with God. For others, finances, work, or even personal pleasures interfere. When the Lord sees that our attention is drifting away from Him, He might use hardships to draw us back so we’ll refocus. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/390 "2013-08-22T02:04:14Z")
> [@Timo](#): > > Well… I wouldn’t say that it’s a requirement, but it’s how you receive the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit brings understanding and truth. At least understanding in spiritual verses and such. > > On a cross when Jesus died, there were two sinners next to Him. One asked Jesus to forgive him right there and then, the other mocked, and Jesus told the one that asked for forgiveness that He would go to Heaven with Him. > > Something like that. I don’t believe that it says that the man was baptized. and he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” - All he did was ‘recognize’ that Jesus was Jesus - didn’t ask for forgiveness, didn’t believe in an afterlife - may not have even fully believed in God, etc - had never heard much of the message - simply said “remember me when” - so - an act of ‘faith’ to be sure - but none of the other trappings was required. The correct answer of course, is John 3:16 - “who ever believes” - no requirements for baptism, nothing. Baptism is a ritual for you to show OTHERS that you are now ‘one of them’. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/391 "2013-08-22T02:04:45Z")
> [@Timo](#): > > So, basically what I’m saying is, the Bible can be true, or the Bible can be false. There is no in between. Sorry mate but there is a lot of debate about what the verses mean so your truth may well be different to mine. I am hard line agnostic and I see truth in the Bible but don’t believe it is a literal account of what allegedly happened or a hot line from god. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/392 "2013-08-22T02:13:24Z")
> [@Ograbme](#): > > Did you rebut the ontological argument with punchcards back in 1979? it was much easier when all you had was 1s and 0s to work with. ---
**Author:** ![Timo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c4cdca/32.png) [@Timo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/393 "2013-08-22T02:13:50Z")
> [@BunnyTVS](#): > > It’s not even a verse about Satan. I know… I’m not blaming you if you didn’t read the whole thread, but I did correct myself because someone pointed that mistake… ---
**Author:** ![Timo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c4cdca/32.png) [@Timo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/394 "2013-08-22T02:19:37Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > God has to let a girl walk past you? The girl can’t just be trying to get somewhere? God manipulated real world events just to test you and see what your resolve is? > > Then you have to not just ignore your biological reaction which is solely dependent on chemicals reacting within your brain. Not just ignore. Ignoring is not enough. You have to deny it outright? > > All the while, atrocities that dwarf your impure thoughts run rampant and unchecked? Or are those just simply bigger tests which man has failed? There is a connection between God tempting you with a pretty girl and God tempting murderers, rapists, and thieves? Everything that happens is a test? Or is it simply things that happen? Okay, obviously you failed to see the point but you’re now directing to another problem. I was describing the difference between testing and temptations. And I just so happened to use an example that just crossed my mind. Explain denying outright…you don’t have to run to each person and tell them how you’re not going to lust at the girl. Ignoring is enough… because you’re not letting yourself into that temptation when you ignore… Do you have a conscience? I think that’s enough to guide you, as well as tests from God. Okay, so you’re saying that people are being forced to kill? people are being forced to rape? that’s what you believe? Because that is temptation, God does not tempt… He tests, it’s different than temptation… ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/395 "2013-08-22T02:27:55Z")
> [@Timo](#): > > Maybe he does test us all. But those who don’t believe wouldn’t think those tests to be of Him, but maybe of karma or a coincidence? Or merely decisions that go hand-in-hand in being alive. > [@](#): > > 1. A third purpose for stressful circumstances is to reveal true convictions. Our faith is tested in tough times. It’s easy to say, “God is good,” when life is peaceful. But when everything goes wrong, **what do we believe about Him?** \*\* Do our words and actions reveal an attitude of trust?\*\* > > King David endured much heartache: a disintegrating family, personal attacks, and betrayal by close friends. But through his trials, he gained deeper intimacy with God, stronger faith, and more godly character. Won’t you let God accomplish His purposes in your present situation? > > Returning believers to right fellowship is only one of God’s purposes for a season of trials. Some difficulties are meant to blow away all distractions so we can focus our attention on the Lord. Other “storms” break our worldly mold so that we can be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Our personal pleasure is not the top priority. God’s primary concern is to shape a wise and obedient follower who loves Him. So God doesn’t actually provide any strength or benefit himself. It’s through faith alone that the one being tested draws strength and hinges his resolve. The choice is still up to the individual and that individual can break at any second given their faith in God. God does lend more help to those with less faith, or less help to those with more faith. The amount of faith that person is capable of is the only thing that separates failure from success. Sounds like more of a coping mechanism for stress than the act of a benevolent, omnipotent being. The “mentally weak” and “naturally suspicious” are at a genetic disadvantage for salvation. Some people are more loss averse and on a biological level less likely to place faith in the unknown due to their brain chemistry. They’re born with it. Those people are categorically less inclined to act on faith alone, and they’re categorically less able to pass God’s tests. That hardly seems fair. ---
**Author:** ![Timo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c4cdca/32.png) [@Timo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/396 "2013-08-22T02:30:07Z")
> [@simster](#): > > and he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” - All he did was ‘recognize’ that Jesus was Jesus - didn’t ask for forgiveness, didn’t believe in an afterlife - may not have even fully believed in God, etc - had never heard much of the message - simply said “remember me when” - so - an act of ‘faith’ to be sure - but none of the other trappings was required. > > The correct answer of course, is John 3:16 - “who ever believes” - no requirements for baptism, nothing. Baptism is a ritual for you to show OTHERS that you are now ‘one of them’. Okay, well when he said “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” obviously he believed that Jesus was the Son of God… Why would he say your kingdom? He did believe in the afterlife…He said remember me…which means he knew that Jesus was going to be alive after the earthly death in Heaven which means he does believe in the afterlife… So maybe being baptized isn’t required, that’s why I used the example of the two thieves when Jesus died… But I’m just saying, with\*\* Baptism\*\* comes the **Holy Spirit**. And the Holy Spirit can bring to light the Bible verses…The Holy Spirit can guide you. Think about it…The Triune…God, Holy Spirit, and Jesus. Maybe it’s not required…to have baptism, but in order to have the Holy Spirit, it’s called baptism. I don’t know how else you can receive the Holy Spirit, please find a verse that says otherwise. Maybe the reason it isn’t required is because for like…emergency purposes such as those- like John 3:16, “whomever believes”. But if the Holy Spirit can help you get closer to God, why wouldn’t you want to be baptized? You can’t just get rid of the Holy Spirit which is part of the Triune. For they are all one…somehow…I still need to think on that one haha. But that’s not the point. Maybe you don’t _have_ to in order to get into Heaven, but if you wanted to know more about God, to develop your faith, to increase your understanding, why wouldn’t you want to? Do you want to stay clueless? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/397 "2013-08-22T02:33:45Z")
> [@Timo](#): > > Okay, obviously you failed to see the point but you’re now directing to another problem. I was describing the difference between testing and temptations. And I just so happened to use an example that just crossed my mind. > > Explain denying outright…you don’t have to run to each person and tell them how you’re not going to lust at the girl. Ignoring is enough… because you’re not letting yourself into that temptation when you ignore… > > Do you have a conscience? I think that’s enough to guide you, as well as tests from God. Okay, so you’re saying that people are being forced to kill? people are being forced to rape? that’s what you believe? Because that is temptation, God does not tempt… > He tests, it’s different than temptation… How does he test? How is it different? If he puts me in hardship (ala Job) - is that not tempting me to do ‘bad things’ in order to get out of the hardship? (aka, he causes me to lose my job and my belongings - forcing me to ‘beg’ on the street - and beggng is a crime and therefore a sin) - or am I supposed to prove I;'m faithful by ignoring medical treatment on faith that he will heal me himself? where is the line drawn? Any test worth itself will have options - if one of the options is ‘evil’ - then god has just tempted me with evil. So, does God test/tempt us or not? which side of the bible is ‘true’ ? And you still didnt answer if you believe the ‘Flood’ happened or not. ---
**Author:** ![Timo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c4cdca/32.png) [@Timo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/398 "2013-08-22T02:35:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What harm? Little, really. I wouldn’t join a church, or tithe, or go door to door (or to discussion boards.) It’d be a private thing. > > No harm. But no benefit, because, well, I simply don’t believe it. Baptism would be a hollow sham. In my heart, I would know it’s nothing but water. I doubt God would be impressed by someone who just goes through the motions without any meaningful belief, and I don’t know how to boostrap belief. See. Now this would be the difference between someone taking a step even when doubtful, even when not fully having faith. You don’t have to understand everything about God before baptism, because, in a way, you never will. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/399 "2013-08-22T02:36:07Z")
> [@Timo](#): > > I mean… has there been a religion that doesn’t take kindly to Christian baptisms? maybe there is, I wouldn’t know. We call it _“Judaism”_. At that, > [@Timo](#): > > But all I have to say that if you fellowship with brothers and sisters, if you aren’t mislead by false prophets The above is, of course, pretty much how Jews back in the day warned folks against that carpenter with a penchant for asking why God had forsaken him. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766/400 "2013-08-22T02:42:20Z")
> [@Timo](#): > > Okay, well when he said “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” obviously he believed that Jesus was the Son of God… Why would he say your kingdom? He did believe in the afterlife…He said remember me…which means he knew that Jesus was going to be alive after the earthly death in Heaven which means he does believe in the afterlife… > > So maybe being baptized isn’t required, that’s why I used the example of the two thieves when Jesus died… > > But I’m just saying, with\*\* Baptism\*\* comes the **Holy Spirit**. And the Holy Spirit can bring to light the Bible verses…The Holy Spirit can guide you. Think about it…The Triune…God, Holy Spirit, and Jesus. Maybe it’s not required…to have baptism, but in order to have the Holy Spirit, it’s called baptism. I don’t know how else you can receive the Holy Spirit, please find a verse that says otherwise. > > Maybe the reason it isn’t required is because for like…emergency purposes such as those- like John 3:16, “whomever believes”. But if the Holy Spirit can help you get closer to God, why wouldn’t you want to be baptized? You can’t just get rid of the Holy Spirit which is part of the Triune. For they are all one…somehow…I still need to think on that one haha. > > But that’s not the point. Maybe you don’t _have_ to in order to get into Heaven, but if you wanted to know more about God, to develop your faith, to increase your understanding, why wouldn’t you want to? Do you want to stay clueless? all kinds of “what ifs and maybes” in there - where does it say that the only way to get the ‘holy spirit’ is thru baptism? You realize that baptism was going on before Christ, right? did those folks get their share of the HS? should we be followers of John instead? As for what the theif did or did not believe - we do not know - maybe he just wanted Jesus to think someone was on his side? you know, an act of kindness… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-believe-in-god/666766.md?page=21)