Why don't people believe in God?

[Dorjan]

Timo you are basically leaning on the “Holy Spirit” being the thing that aids all understanding, or at the very least, acceptance of what makes Christianity tick. You’ve acknowledged that without this Holy Spirit, Christian doctrine as currently practiced by the Protestant majority in the US doesn’t make a whole lot of sense (and I don’t know if you are aware of this or not, that doctrine varies widely among Christians elsewhere).

Yet, you still have not answered my previous question - Define and Quantify what the “Holy Spirit” is, and what makes it any different than the feeling of peace and understand that others devout in their faith have about their own beliefs.

[pancakes3]

@Timo

That’s where you’re wrong. I do realize the inconsistency of that. However, it’s just one of those things that humans can’t understand because God is just that great. As I said before in previous posts, you won’t ever know all about God. But the small things that you do know about Him, can make up for what you still have yet to find out.

IN THE END, however, we will know and understand why, and every mystery that has every crossed our mind will be answered.

By the way, it’s called The Triune. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Which Christians believe are all one God. Puzzle? Yes.

Anddd maybe someone does figure that out. Please share. It’s why we have fellowship.

Nobody wants to know ALL about God. I would just want the simple things answered like… does he exist? For instance, I don’t have to know all about math to know that math exists. I can choose to not believe the math but at least I would know that there is such a thing as math and people use math to solve complex mysteries of the Universe.

Furthermore, why would God make something that seems so basic and intrinsic to our existence such that we have no hope of even beginning to understand? God knows our intellectual limits and he knows our basic tendencies. Yet, he creates this inefficient, convoluted process with which to solve his message. You admit yourself that Christianity isn’t perfect and there are loads of inconsistencies within it. It hardly seems like the work of an omnipotent being.

Again, I have to reiterate “We can’t understand God” is not a valid excuse. We might not know about God, but can we should at least see that God follows basic, logical consistencies. Logic is not a manmade construct. It’s a fundamental truth of the universe.

[Munch]

Just to add another meaningless data point to the discussion, particularly Timo’s initial question of “Why don’t people believe in God?”, I’ll proffer my individual answer:

Because, to me, it’s nonsense. I’ve come from a religious background. I was a very devout Christian. But after several years of really digging into the logic of it, I realized the complete illogistics of belief. One argument that believers always come back to is Pascal’s Wager. You yourself have alluded to it a number of times - either you’re right and I’ve consigned my soul to an eternity of suffering, or I’m right and I’ve gained nothing to profit from it.

But that is a horribly structured argument rife with missteps and garbage logic. The choice is not A (believe in God) or B (do not believe in God). The choice is between an infinite number of As (because there are an infinite number of possible gods in which to believe and worship and obey and fear) and B. So you’ve chosen the Abrahamic God of Christianity based on a personal experience you had that drew you to that. Guess what - so has every follower of every other god. And once you realize that belief in Thor is just as meaningless as belief in Athena is just as meaningless as belief in Allah is just as meaningless as belief in Ganesh is just as meaningless as belief in Jesus Christ, you’re done looking at other options, because they’re all just as meaningless, because none of them offer any sort of evidence other than “it’s all so wonderous that I can’t possibly explain it, so something all powerful that I can’t explain - but that I can simplify into an easy soundbite - must have done it”. So I quit - and the world has become far more wonderous and amazing and beautiful than it ever was when it had the overly simplistic bedtime story cause of “God did it”.

[Katriona]

@Timo

But as I said before, personal experiences trump to just reading verses in the Bible.

Wouldn’t you say applying/experiencing what you know makes your learning stronger? Or belief in what you learned stronger?

But yeah, I hope this isn’t what people think…when they read the posts…

That’s exactly what a lot of us think reading your posts. You’re just cherry-picking random verses instead of telling us anything in your own words. You’d do better to get out of this thread, read your book cover to cover and then tell us what you think of it.

[Musicat]

@Timo

Now it says in the Bible, that God loves all of us. In fact he gave His only Son for us. Would you sacrifice your son, or child, assuming that you have one, to people that hate you, that do something against what you say, that mock you, that belittle you, that may hate you? I know I wouldn’t. But He did.

Yeah, not only is the Big Guy a pathological monster, he’s also stupid. Imagine any intelligent deity believing in such preposterous magic – that if one dude dies, millions of others thousands of years and half a planet away will be affected and cause the same deity to change his mind. Ridiculous!

[Timo]

Hmmmm, interesting

Then I also assume that you researched your reasons to why the Tanach/Tanakh is already fulfilled?

Obviously, as you already know, I can’t count on my own knowledge on this, haha. So I looked online for answers. I give all credit to the men who wrote what I read" Also, feel free to correct.

1. Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David and King Solomon

“It was prophecied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin (maiden) in Isaiah 9:14.”
If you account that Jesus had to be confirmed of his linage through the father, because of the Jewish law, then how is Jesus going to be born through a virgin? We all know how babies are born.

“Now, if this critic of the messianic claims of Jesus is right, then, on the one hand, the Messiah must be born of a virgin, but on the other hand, he must NOT be born of a virgin in order to fulfill the requirement to be the physical seed of the line of David. Clearly, this is not a correct understanding of the text. Here is how I see it. Joseph adopted Jesus as his son, making Jesus, technically, only the adopted son of David. But then, all of us Gentile Christians are exactly the same thing. We, too, are not legitimate heirs of the promise of Abraham, yet, like Jesus, we are adopted into sonship with the Father.”

Which brings me to this

2. “Universal Knowledge of G-d” -The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9).

Okay, here’s the deal. How are we suppose to serve a God that could not be ours? How is God suppose to be “universal” how are we suppose to serve the one true God? Through adoption. “Ephesians 2:14-22 talks about us being real children of Abraham through adoption.” if through were to deny that Jesus is the legitimate son of Joseph through adoption, how is God going to be praised universally?

If it’s possible to be legitimately adopted by God, through which we were not initially inherited, don’t you suppose that it’s also possible for Jesus to be legitimately adopted by Joseph which considers him to be of the lineage of David?

Read more, and I’d suggest it as it explains it better than I can. Can you explain how Jesus can be the Messiah if he was not from Judah (given that Joseph was not his physical father)? – Evidence for Christianity
I’d also suggest to look at the fulfilled prophecies listed on this site: Evidence that Jesus Christ is the Messiah

I don’t want you to think that I lost my faith. I think we should both be pondering and looking. While I’m doing this, please, so you don’t forget, answer my question. #553

[Musicat]

@Timo

Going back, God loves us all. If He loves us all, and like how a mother loves us, don’t you assume that He’s going to at least give you chances to believe in Him? Now, what happens to people’s lives, we don’t know, we don’t know every detail in a person’s life. We don’t know whether they were touched by God but decided to ignore it, or whether they had a small feeling that He could be real. However, we do know that God is loving. God is just. Would God be loving and just if He sent those who never had a chance to hell? For me, no. But He is loving, He is just. He loves us more than we love each other…

Any being who was really loving wouldn’t condemn us to the Fires of Hell by default, then require that we worship him unconditionally just to obtain a “Get Out Of Hell” card. That’s a psychotic idea, not a loving one.

George Carlin said it best. It’s only one minute long. Watch it. George expresses the same sentiment as you do, but uses logic.

[Czarcasm]

@Timo

Hmmmm, interesting

Then I also assume that you researched your reasons to why the Tanach/Tanakh is already fulfilled?

Obviously, as you already know, I can’t count on my own knowledge on this, haha. So I looked online for answers. I give all credit to the men who wrote what I read" Also, feel free to correct.

1. Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David and King Solomon

“It was prophecied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin (maiden) in Isaiah 9:14.”

Did you even try to read the link yourself without filtering it through an apologist site? Isaiah 9:14 says absolutely nothing about a virgin birth!
Isaiah 9:14: “So the LORD will cut off from Israel both head and tail, both palm branch and reed in a single day;”

For ghod’s sake, will you please read the book yourself.

edited to add: and your Ephesians 2:14-22 quote doesn’t say anything like what your apologist site claims, either.

[Fuji]

I have actually read this entire thread (yeah, slow day) and would also like to welcome Timo to the SDMB, as he has so far shown himself to be a polite and fairly articulate poster.

That said, as to why I don’t believe in (the Christian) God, it is because I deem all organized religion as ritualized nonsense. However, even if I were, say, hypothetically forced at gunpoint to say I was an adherent of any of them, I would probably have to go with some variety of Hinduism.

My mother was raised as a Christian and my father as a Hindu, though neither tradition was instilled in me. However, I did attend a high school operated by the Brothers of the Sacred Heart, and I have read the entirety of the Bhagavad Gita.

Since scriptural quotes are apparently all the rage in this thread, I will supply my two quotes (apologies for different translations, formatting, etc.) as my way of understanding the contrast between Christianity and Hinduism:

John 14:6 - “Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Bhagavad Gita 4:11 - “Howsoever men do worship me, so do I welcome them. By whatever path they travel, it leads to me at last.”

While acknowledging the unlikelihood of either of these belief systems accurately reflecting reality, at least the God of the second quote sounds like something the actual font of existence would say; the God of the first quote just comes off like a petty, selfish bully.

[Czarcasm]

@Timo

Okay, my question for you. How would you know if you’ve never felt the Holy Spirit?

How would I identify it as “the Holy Spirit” if I wasn’t already indoctrinated into your belief system?

[MonkeyMensch]

I don’t believe in God because he never returned my phone calls (prayers.) There are others in my life who don’t return my phone calls and I’m beginning to doubt their existence as well.

[Timo]

@Dorjan

Timo you are basically leaning on the “Holy Spirit” being the thing that aids all understanding, or at the very least, acceptance of what makes Christianity tick. You’ve acknowledged that without this Holy Spirit, Christian doctrine as currently practiced by the Protestant majority in the US doesn’t make a whole lot of sense (and I don’t know if you are aware of this or not, that doctrine varies widely among Christians elsewhere).

Yet, you still have not answered my previous question - Define and Quantify what the “Holy Spirit” is, and what makes it any different than the feeling of peace and understand that others devout in their faith have about their own beliefs.

I have already typed in previous posts about the Holy Spirit and what it feels like. You can not gain it through human knowledge or earthly wisdom. I don’t know how else to repeat myself. Let’s use a word ‘thing’. This thing is a thing that is given to you to help guide you and give you truth and understanding. This thing, helps you to remember what is said about God. This thing shows love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control to/through the person. This thing can’t be understood, or seen through the worldly views. This thing is not known to those that don’t believe. This thing can happen to you if you repent, if you admit that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus, who died for you. Who died for your sins. This thing can happen to you if you believe.

Do you find this to be logical? No? Well that’s because you’re using human knowledge, your worldly understanding. What do I mean by that? you only understand what you see. Which is rational. But this is not how you understand this thing. The understanding of the Spirit can’t be seen or understood that way. But remember, you can.

I don’t know how this is different to other feelings of peace, because, frankly, I never dove into other religions. Ask another person who has.

(Just to reference John 14:15-17/ John 14:26 /John 16:12-15 )

[Czarcasm]

What do you think you would say if you had this experience, but belonged to a different religion?

[Timo]

@MonkeyMensch

I don’t believe in God because he never returned my phone calls (prayers.) There are others in my life who don’t return my phone calls and I’m beginning to doubt their existence as well.

Which brings another subject to light. Are you praying for worldly things? Are you praying for something against the Bible? Did you pray for “Lord I want you to be real to me” Or did you pray for “Lord, please give me a new laptop.” Not saying you can’t pray for worldly things…

Sometimes my prayers don’t get answered either, but then I know there’s a reason for it. For God sees all, and knows what bad or good for you.

You’re probably going have to go more in depth more…
Or maybe…you’re learning how to walk with God? So am I by the way.

Here’s a start: “Lord I want you to be real to me. Why don’t you answer my prayers?”
You can ask the Lord questions. Talk to Him like you would a friend. Start a conversation with Him.

[Marley23]

@Timo

I have already typed in previous posts about the Holy Spirit and what it feels like. You can not gain it through human knowledge or earthly wisdom.

And again- how do you know that? This is circular. One of the problems here is that you can’t make an argument for your views without already assuming the Bible is right and your version of god exists.

What does it tell you that people of other religions are just as convinced as you are?

[Dorjan]

Well you are in luck, because I am about to tell you. Nothing you just described is unique to the “Holy Ghost”. I’ll even take it a step further - it’s not even unique to religious beliefs in general. And careful there, you are dangerously close to insinuating that a non-believer is incapable of experiencing/exhibiting love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

[Czarcasm]

@Timo

Which brings another subject to light. Are you praying for worldly things? Are you praying for something against the Bible? Did you pray for “Lord I want you to be real to me” Or did you pray for “Lord, please give me a new laptop.” Not saying you can’t pray for worldly things…

Sometimes my prayers don’t get answered either, but then I know there’s a reason for it. For God sees all, and knows what bad or good for you.

You’re probably going have to go more in depth more…
Or maybe…you’re learning how to walk with God? So am I by the way.

Here’s a start: “Lord I want you to be real to me. Why don’t you answer my prayers?”
You can ask the Lord questions. Talk to Him like you would a friend. Start a conversation with Him.

How should one decide which god to pray to first, and how do you do this without offending the other gods?

BTW: Would you mind re-reading the link I gave you without filtering it through an apologist site that lies about Bible verses?

[Timo]

@Czarcasm

What do you think you would say if you had this experience, but belonged to a different religion?

I don’t think you would want to know the answer to your question.

First of all, I don’t know what the other religions’ personal experiences feel like so I can’t compare.

However, you also don’t know what the personal experiences with God feels like, so you can’t assume that all religious personal experiences are the same but with different God/Gods.

[CurtC]

@leftfield6

So, you agree that this would be beyond reasonable doubt, but you’ll accept that Jesus was born to a virgin? So somehow immaculate conception passes the scrutiny test?

By the way,

immaculate conception =/= virgin birth.

Two different things.

[Timo]

@Czarcasm

How should one decide which god to pray to first, and how do you do this without offending the other gods?

BTW: Would you mind re-reading the link I gave you without filtering it through an apologist site that lies about Bible verses?

Would you please state which Bible verse he is lying about and explain before stating that he’s lying about it?