# Why don't people consider the Catholic Church a hate group? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558 "2009-12-01T04:40:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/21 "2009-12-01T06:46:29Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What caused you to form this opinion about me? I said nothing indicating my views on the basis of homosexuality. Whether or not you are attracted to the same sex for biological reasons, homosexual sex is still a behavior. Because you called it a ‘lifestyle’, and a ‘behaviour’. Fair enough, but then you can say the exact same things about heterosexual sex. It doesn’t relate to morality at all. > [@](#): > > Do you hate Pedophiles? No, I think they need help. What’s you’re point in even bringing this up? That I can hate people based on things they cannot change? I just said I don’t think hate is useful in addressing problems, such that they exist. > [@](#): > > Get back to me with the locations of the Vatican death camps. I could have picked any group that most people consider ‘evil’ - the justification for the reaction matters to me. Otherwise the reaction itself is based on nothing. As for where the Catholic Church has caused death, you’re kidding right? I point to the continent of Africa and the spread of the AIDS virus, helped along by the Catholic preaching on the moral evil of prophylactics. > [@](#): > > Except that a homosexual who isn’t having sex with his same gender is not sinning by Catholic doctrine. Who cares if they’re sinning or not, they’re still ‘disordered’. > [@](#): > > So your entire view of morality is based in how we are physically wired? Nothing else matters? My view of morality is largely based on the welfare of my fellow primates. Since homosexuality doesn’t harm anyone, why should I even care? Knock yourself out, and don’t tell me that it’s morally deficient in some way. > [@](#): > > \*Waits for the OMG you compared homosexuals to pedophiles straw man. Nice try. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/22 "2009-12-01T06:53:04Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Because you called it a ‘lifestyle’, and a ‘behaviour’. Fair enough, but then you can say the exact same things about heterosexual sex. It doesn’t relate to morality at all. It doesn’t relate to morality as YOU see it. > [@](#): > > No, I think they need help. What’s you’re point in even bringing this up? That I can hate people based on things they cannot change? I just said I don’t think hate is useful in addressing problems, such that they exist. Do you think that pedophilia is morally wrong? > [@](#): > > I could have picked any group that most people consider ‘evil’ - the justification for the reaction matters to me. Otherwise the reaction itself is based on nothing. As for where the Catholic Church has caused death, you’re kidding right? I point to the continent of Africa and the spread of the AIDS virus, helped along by the Catholic preaching on the moral evil of prophylactics. The Catholic Church has not setup DEATH CAMPS. > [@](#): > > Who cares if they’re sinning or not, they’re still ‘disordered’. _shrugs_ The point is you are judging people who have different values from you, the same as they are judging your values. And just the same you are providing moral justifications for why you are ‘better’ than they are, just like they are of you. > [@](#): > > My view of morality is largely based on the welfare of my fellow primates. Since homosexuality doesn’t harm anyone, why should I even care? Knock yourself out, and don’t tell me that it’s morally deficient in some way. Ok, I won’t tell you. 😉 The idea that you know what’s good for the general welfare of your species or not, is a tall claim to make. The Catholic Church makes it, and you do here as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/23 "2009-12-01T07:05:06Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It doesn’t relate to morality as YOU see it. Of course. Who else would I be speaking for? > [@](#): > > Do you think that pedophilia is morally wrong? Insofar as it endangers and infringes on the welfare and safety of others (in this case children), yes. > [@](#): > > The Catholic Church has not setup DEATH CAMPS. I didn’t say it did. > [@](#): > > _shrugs_ The point is you are judging people who have different values from you, the same as they are judging your values. And just the same you are providing moral justifications for why you are ‘better’ than they are, just like they are of you. Everybody judges everyone else, it’s part of human nature. You of course have your own personal morals, but what is of concern to me is how to we get to the conclusion that something is wrong. Theft, for example, I have no issue in agreeing with Catholic doctrine that theft is wrong - it causes material and emotional loss to our brothers and sisters. But I can’t see the problem with homosexuality, where the root seems to be what a purported holy book says. I’m sorry, but that’s not just good enough for me. Or a lot of other people, who have dispensed with much of what it actually says. > [@](#): > > Ok, I won’t tell you. 😉 The idea that you know what’s good for the general welfare of your species or not, is a tall claim to make. The Catholic Church makes it, and you do here as well. I wasn’t speaking to you directly there, but the Catholic Church who would presume to tell me. And they presume to know the mind of God, claiming that authority, which is a grander claim that I could possibly make. Rather, I claim it on the basis of evidence and experience. For all I know I could well be wrong about homosexuality being harmful. But from evidence and my experience I can’t say that it is. Quite the opposite, in fact, it’s a form of great love and joy for many. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/24 "2009-12-01T07:10:31Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > They have a disgusting view of homosexuals (unless the homosexuals repress their desires). Shouldn’t someone like John Kerry be shunned by fellow liberals for being a member of a hate group? Because they don’t hate anyone, perhaps? Whereas \*you \*are displaying a remarkable mastery of hatred. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/25 "2009-12-01T07:12:12Z")
Personally, I have no problem with either homosexuals or Catholics. The world is full of busy-bodies. I’ll just make sure that in my living will it says not to let me go to a Catholic Hospital. Or maybe I’ll go to a Catholic Hospital on purpose for the free medical care until science can revive me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/26 "2009-12-01T07:13:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Show me the homosexual death camps being setup by the Vatican, and then I’ll concede that it’s a valid point. The death camps are all around us. People who have been driven to suicide. Or people who grow up emotionally crippled, denying a fundamental part of their identy as “sinful.” Or people living wretched lives of celibacy, deluding themselve into thinking that if they can refrain from acting on their feelings, they’ll get into heaven. Or people who have lost the ability to feel anything, fearing that their feelings might be “wrong.” Or people who enter into a hetero marriage, thinking they’re cured, but knowing that it’s all a lie, while their true feelings are driven into the “down-low.” Or worse, people who can’t reconcile their feelings with their convictions, so opt to join the priesthood, where no hetero sex is expected of them, thinking that they can endure a lifetime of celibacy, just to be virtuous in the eye of the Church. You see how that works out. These are the “death camps” of the Church. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/27 "2009-12-01T07:17:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m afraid it is not bull. It is what they believe. You might not agree with it and find it distasteful, but it’s Catholic doctrine. It all stems from them viewing the act as a sin. A religion is a collection of chosen beliefs . . . chosen by every single person who is a believer. The fact that it’s “doctrine” doesn’t change the fact that it’s based on ignorance. Just because “it is what they believe,” doesn’t excuse it. Lots of people “believe” things that are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/28 "2009-12-01T07:23:03Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > . . . the grouping of homosexuals is determined by an order of behavior. Haven’t you been around here long enough to know better than this? And branding everyone who is opposed to the Church as “Liberal” or “PC” is just intellectually dishonest. You are bypassing the issue with _ad-hominem_ generalization. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/29 "2009-12-01T07:36:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The entire point is determining who is a bigot. **Der Trihs** does this by just claiming that someone is a bigot. By his definition of values, anyone who disapproves of homoesexuality is a bigot, case closed. Just as from the Catholic churches point of view, homosexuality is a sin, case closed. The difference you are conveniently ignoring in your attempt to pretend a false equivalence between my position and the Church is that the side _I_ am condemning actually has victims. Homosexuals hurt no one by being homosexual; the church hurts people by condemning them. > [@mswas](#): > > He Godwinized himself in his very first rejoinder. Since when is that considered a ‘valid point’? Since the parallel is obvious. If condemning people who hate you and hurt you is wrong, by your own logic the Jews shouldn’t be mad at the Nazis. But putting it like that, using Nazis ( who are OK to condemn unlike the Church ) and Jews who are unacceptable to dismiss ( unlike gays ) means you can’t just declare such anger wrong like you want to. You don’t like the analogy because it fits. You are demonstrating how Godwin’s Law has come to be misused; it is now used more as a means of silencing valid criticisms than anything else. > [@mswas](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Hate the sin, not the sinner, right? But the two are often inseparable in the case of the homosexual. You could stop masturbating if you really wanted, and really believed it was a sin. A homosexual can’t stop being attracted to the same sex any more than a heterosexual can stop being attracted to a member of the opposite sex. That’s the distinction, that’s why it is an immoral doctrine. > > Except that a homosexual who isn’t having sex with his same gender is not sinning by Catholic doctrine. Who cares? They sure don’t. Doctrine is irrelevant; nothing but an excuse. The ones who say they hate the sin but not the sinner are lying. And condeming someone to a life of loneliness because of baseless claims is an evil act. Again; the difference between the two sides is the Catholic one is actually hurting people. And going to great efforts to do so. > [@mswas](#): > > Get back to me with the locations of the Vatican death camps. The entire continent of Africa, where they are killing people right and left by lying about AIDS and condoms. And by encouraging homophobia. Do they put people in camps? No; why should they bother? Not that anyone said they did. Nor does it matter; dead is dead. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/30 "2009-12-01T07:39:00Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > A religion is a collection of chosen beliefs . . . chosen by every single person who is a believer. The fact that it’s “doctrine” doesn’t change the fact that it’s based on ignorance. Just because “it is what they believe,” doesn’t excuse it. Lots of people “believe” things that are wrong. I find it dubious that beliefs are chosen. Most people are not self-reflective enough to consider what they believe. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/31 "2009-12-01T07:41:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I find it dubious that beliefs are chosen. Most people are not self-reflective enough to consider what they believe. So your idea of defending these people is “They’re fools”? That undercuts the side you are trying to defend; it doesn’t exonerate them. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/32 "2009-12-01T07:45:22Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] The ones who say they hate the sin but not the sinner are lying. [/QUOTE] Argument by assertion where you comment upon the mental state of people you do not know. If I hate murder does that mean I hate all murderers? I have known murderers in my life, and I didn’t hate them even though I strongly disapproved of what they had done. One time I got arrested and spent the night in jail. The person that was nicest to me was a murderer, I could tell by the look in his eyes that he knew he was going down for it. The reason Godwin is appropriate here is that you compare hatred of someone who disapproves of you with the hatred of someone who killed your Grandparents. It’s stupid. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/33 "2009-12-01T07:46:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > So your idea of defending these people is “They’re fools”? That undercuts the side you are trying to defend; it doesn’t exonerate them. If I called them fools, I called you a fool as well. And no, it doesn’t exonerate you. You both have in common that you are seeking a moral justification to hate someone. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/34 "2009-12-01T07:48:46Z")
> [@](#): > > **panache45** : A religion is a collection of chosen beliefs . . . chosen by every single person who is a believer. The fact that it’s “doctrine” doesn’t change the fact that it’s based on ignorance. Just because “it is what they believe,” doesn’t excuse it. Lots of people “believe” things that are wrong. If you offer compassion to the mentally ill who chose suicide or who are never able to reconcile their feelings with their convictions, then can you not also understand that there are those who struggle just as mightily with the curse of endoctrination into ignorance? _All are punished._ Your “Lots of people believe things that are wrong” applies in both cases. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/35 "2009-12-01T07:52:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > If I called them fools, I called you a fool as well. And no, it doesn’t exonerate you. You both have in common that you are seeking a moral justification to hate someone. Nonsense; I have plenty of real, objective reasons to hate them; namely, all the people they’ve hurt. The people I’m condemning have baseless assertions “justified” by the authority of a fictional god. I can point to people who have suffered and died; all they can to is whine about “sin”. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/36 "2009-12-01T07:52:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I find it dubious that beliefs are chosen. Most people are not self-reflective enough to consider what they believe. If that were the case, no ideas would be any more valid or true than any other. It just depends on whatever random influences affect you. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/37 "2009-12-01T07:53:22Z")
> [@](#): > > **Der Trihs** : The ones who say they hate the sin but not the sinner are lying. When you say that, you are demonstrating that you do not understand the difference. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/38 "2009-12-01T08:02:15Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > If you offer compassion to the mentally ill who chose suicide or who are never able to reconcile their feelings with their convictions, then can you not also understand that there are those who struggle just as mightily with the curse of endoctrination into ignorance? _All are punished._ > > Your “Lots of people believe things that are wrong” applies in both cases. Of course. Gay people aren’t the only victims of the Church’s irrationality . . . and the bottom line is that we’re all responsible for the content of our minds. Those who are struggling with the Church’s indoctrination are fighting a heroic battle. Over the years, I’ve known many members of “Dignity,” a group of gay Catholics, who are trying to change the Church from within. Though I’m pessimistic about the chance of their long-term success, I have to at least respect their bravery. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/39 "2009-12-01T08:02:41Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > When you say that, you are demonstrating that you do not understand the difference. That’s all. No, I’m saying that I don’t believe them. I consider it nothing more than an attempt to paper over their homophobia with fake compassion. No different than any other bunch of people who claim that “we are doing it for your own good” when they oppress and abuse their victims. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/40 "2009-12-01T08:11:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, I’m saying that I don’t believe them. I consider it nothing more than an attempt to paper over their homophobia with fake compassion. No different than any other bunch of people who claim that “we are doing it for your own good” when they oppress and abuse their victims. Right, and people who have faith don’t actually learn anything. Despite the evidence that many religious people can drive cars. I guess they must be hypocrites because they learned to drive a car. :rolleyes: Your hateful screeds are absurd. [QUOTE=panache45] If that were the case, no ideas would be any more valid or true than any other. It just depends on whatever random influences affect you. [/QUOTE] Nonsense, the fact that the majority of people give little thought to what they actually believe does not invalidate the efforts of those who do. I mean look at you for instance, you are nitpicking a minor point of Catholic doctrine and condemning the whole lot of it based on that. Love isn’t this binary thing. Neither is hate. It cuts both ways and we are all capable of both. You’re just trying to rationalize your hate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558.md?page=3)