# Why don't people consider the Catholic Church a hate group? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558 "2009-12-01T04:40:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/61 "2009-12-01T16:20:40Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Are you seriously equating removing tax exemption with revoking people’s rights? This is beyond laughable. Removing tax exemption is removing people’s rights BY DEFINITION. I’m not equating it with anything, I am describing it accurately based on American law. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/62 "2009-12-01T16:22:36Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > The death camps are all around us. People who have been driven to suicide. Or people who grow up emotionally crippled, denying a fundamental part of their identy as “sinful.” Or people living wretched lives of celibacy, deluding themselve into thinking that if they can refrain from acting on their feelings, they’ll get into heaven. Or people who have lost the ability to feel anything, fearing that their feelings might be “wrong.” > > Or people who enter into a hetero marriage, thinking they’re cured, but knowing that it’s all a lie, while their true feelings are driven into the “down-low.” > > Or worse, people who can’t reconcile their feelings with their convictions, so opt to join the priesthood, where no hetero sex is expected of them, thinking that they can endure a lifetime of celibacy, just to be virtuous in the eye of the Church. You see how that works out. > > These are the “death camps” of the Church. So the Church has “death camps” in your imagination. You would surely agree that this is somewhat different from the Nazi death camps that exist in reality, would you not? > [@The Cleveland Steamer](#): > > They have a disgusting view of homosexuals (unless the homosexuals repress their desires). Shouldn’t someone like John Kerry be shunned by fellow liberals for being a member of a hate group? So your opinion is that they’re a hate group. So what? You’re free to shun John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden and the entire Kennedy family and Tom Daschle and Dennis Kucinich and Dick Gephardt if you wish. You might want to give some consideration to how that would affect the political balance in this country, but that’s really your decision and not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/63 "2009-12-01T16:23:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No one has asked for any special consideration for the Catholics. Nonsense. You do, so do millions of others; as I have repeatedly pointed out, as have others. Again; if a less powerful, non-religious organization acted like the Church, would it be respected? Would it be tolerated? Would it even likely be allowed to survive? No, it would not. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/64 "2009-12-01T16:29:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > _shrugs_ The point is you are judging people who have different values from you, the same as they are judging your values. And just the same you are providing moral justifications for why you are ‘better’ than they are, just like they are of you. To the best of my knowledge, there have been no organized (or unorganized) efforts by gay people, or by organizations that advocate on behalf of gay rights, to prevent Catholic people from conducting their personal lives according to their faith, nor has there been any effort to deny services, rights, or privileges to Catholic people. Nor have there been any efforts to force devout Catholics to enter into same-sex unions, engage in homosexual acts, or otherwise modify their personal behavior to be more like gay people.\* Nor are there efforts to force Catholic people to obtain abortions or use contraception. On the other hand, the Catholic church, its representatives, and organizations that advocate on behalf of the advancement of Catholicism have actively campaigned to prevent gay people from conducting their personal lives according to their faiths (even when those people are not Catholic) and have actively campaigned to deny services, rights, and privileges to gay people. Further, the Catholic church, its representatives, etc., routinely attempt to force non-Catholic people to adhere to Catholic teachings by making abortion and contraception unavailable to them. \*Whatever that might entail. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/65 "2009-12-01T16:30:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Removing tax exemption is removing people’s rights BY DEFINITION. I’m not equating it with anything, I am describing it accurately based on American law. No you aren’t. You are flat out wrong. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/66 "2009-12-01T16:30:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Removing tax exemption is removing people’s rights BY DEFINITION. I’m not equating it with anything, I am describing it accurately based on American law. Wrong. Tax-exempt status is a privilege, not a right, and it is granted to institutions, not to individuals, i.e., people. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/67 "2009-12-01T16:54:25Z")
\*\*Considering the topic, this has actually been a relatively civil discussion. However, if there are any more posts claiming to describe another poster, by value, intrinsic worth, capability of thought, or ability to select the appropriate clothing, I am going to start handing out Warnings. I am not sure about “hate the sin, love the sinner,” but I am very much aware of “attack the post, not the poster.” Anyone creating a post should scan it for the word “you” or any other poster’s username. If either appear in the post, be very sure that there is nothing personal, particularly in the nature of an attack, before you submit the post. [/Moderating]\*\* ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/68 "2009-12-01T17:13:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The entire point is determining who is a bigot. **Der Trihs** does this by just claiming that someone is a bigot. By his definition of values, anyone who disapproves of homoesexuality is a bigot, case closed. And he’s right. They are bigots. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/69 "2009-12-01T17:18:41Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Are you seriously equating removing tax exemption with revoking people’s rights? This is beyond laughable. Apparently Churches have ‘rights’ to tax exemption. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/70 "2009-12-01T17:22:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You do, so do millions of others; as I have repeatedly pointed out, as have others. In point of fact, no, you have never pointed out any instance where I asked for special consideration for the Catholic church. You are free to do so now. Point out some instance where I said the Catholic church should be given special consideration, over and above other [non-profit groups.](http://www.gaycityusa.com/organizations.htm) Or you could simply re-rant. Your call. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/71 "2009-12-01T17:45:30Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Well, that depends on whether or not there’s actual objective grounds for linking someone to some objective moral evil (coffpaedophiliacoff). Yes, well that was my point in other posts too. I don’t have any problem with the objections of the Church to stealing or murder, these things which we can pretty much all agree are objective bad for individuals and society. But there is a massive difference when you get into categories like homosexuality. By way of analogy, imagine if some militant homosexual group preached that heterosexual sex leads to intrinsic moral evil, that your inclination towards the opposite sex some sort of ‘disorder’ that should not be acted upon. We wouldn’t pay the slightest attention to them, but this is the sell that Catholicism tries to make. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/72 "2009-12-01T18:21:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. You do, so do millions of others; as I have repeatedly pointed out, as have others. Again; if a less powerful, non-religious organization acted like the Church, would it be respected? Would it be tolerated? Would it even likely be allowed to survive? No, it would not. Aren’t there hundreds of small churches who consider homosexual acts a sin that are allowed to survive and even get respect in their communities? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/73 "2009-12-01T18:32:54Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If the Catholic church tolerated and protected homosexuals half as much as it has pedophile clergy, I’m sure there wouldn’t be all this trouble. It has. About a third of Catholic priests are gay, according to most analysts. That fits with my experiences growing up in the church. The last two priests I had before leving the church were most definitely gay. I’d like to know how many of the Cardinals that voted Ratzinger in as Pope were gay. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/74 "2009-12-01T18:45:22Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Wrong. Tax-exempt status is a privilege, not a right, and it is granted to institutions, not to individuals, i.e., people. Fair enough, I stand corrected. > [@tagos](#): > > And he’s right. They are bigots. Ok, so the term bigot is being added to my dictionary of terms that are not particularly useful in any meaningful sense. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/75 "2009-12-01T18:47:02Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Do you also love gangs? Drug abuse? Apathy towards school? ‘Black’ can also be a culture. And just like any other culture, it has a lot of negative aspects. Isn’t it possible to condemn the negative aspects of a culture/lifestyle while still embracing the individual people? > > I think the most important part of sexuality from the Church’s POV is monogamy. (They’ve relaxed their birth control stance in recent years, and any argument against non-heterosexual sex would follow the same path. ) I happen to agree. I think society as a whole benefits when people maintain monogamous relationships, even if it’s serially. Unfortunately, I think that it’s only a recent trend in gay culture. In my opinion, a large part of the disapproval of homosexuality stems from the stereotypical gay lifestyle of anonymous hookups, promiscuity, t-rooms, etc. This does not seem to square with reality very well. The debate over gay rights has never been as loud as it is right now, and that coincides perfectly with gays attempting to legitimize their relationships through the same mechanism used by heterosexuals. In the current political environment, the primary objection to gay rights campaigns is not that we’re too promiscuous, it’s that we’re daring to suggest that our relationships are as import as heterosexual relationships. That’s the issue that’s driving people to the polls to vote away our rights. No one’s passing laws preventing gays from having anonymous bar hook ups. Indeed, one could almost look at the actions of the Catholic church on this issue and come to the conclusion that the church is trying to _promote_ promiscuity. > [@](#): > > In that respect, I think the Church will eventually come around to gay marriage, and have the same expectations of gay youth as it does for everyone else: A Sexual relationship should be in the context of a monogamous one. Creating an expectation among youth for monogamous relationships, even if you are gay, would go a long way towards constructing an society that minimizes a large part of what the Church disapproves of homosexuality. Not in this century, I don’t think. Probably not in the next one, either. The Catholic Church still hasn’t gotten fully on board with the idea of gender equality, and that’s after over a hundred and fifty years of steady progress on the issue. I don’t expect progress on gay rights to go any faster than that. To the contrary, I suspect progress will be much slower, as the Catholic Church continues to expand in third world countries, where social acceptance of homosexuality is much further behind than it is in developed nations. ---
**Author:** ![Sue\_White](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@Sue\_White](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sue_White)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/76 "2009-12-01T19:06:25Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > It has. About a third of Catholic priests are gay, according to most analysts. That fits with my experiences growing up in the church. The last two priests I had before leving the church were most definitely gay. I’d like to know how many of the Cardinals that voted Ratzinger in as Pope were gay. I tried google with no luck. Do you have a cite that “most analysits find 1/3 of Catholic priests are gay”? I’d like to see how they performed that research. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/77 "2009-12-01T19:11:41Z")
> [@Sue\_White](#): > > I tried google with no luck. Do you have a cite that “most analysits find 1/3 of Catholic priests are gay”? I’d like to see how they performed that research. [Here’s a site](http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm) that references a number of sources, well footnoted. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/78 "2009-12-01T19:19:37Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > But there is a massive difference when you get into categories like homosexuality. By way of analogy, imagine if some militant homosexual group preached that heterosexual sex leads to intrinsic moral evil, that your inclination towards the opposite sex some sort of ‘disorder’ that should not be acted upon. We wouldn’t pay the slightest attention to them, but this is the sell that Catholicism tries to make. You’re right. We would pay no attention to them—because what they believe would have no basis in reality. Heterosexual sex, like it or not, is how we all got here. It is how nature designed our continuance. It is the natural and healthy drive that passes one’s gene’s on. Homosexual sex enjoys no special place like that. Look at the sweep of history; homosexuality was at times, like in periods of Ancient Greece, accepted—but as a dalliance. The only point I’m trying to make here is that trying to equate homosexuality with heterosexuality—from a societal standpoint—is absurd in the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/79 "2009-12-01T19:22:14Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Fair enough, I stand corrected. So now you have accepted you were wrong, how about an answer to the question you were asked? [QUOTE=panache45] Are you seriously equating removing tax exemption with revoking people’s rights? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558/80 "2009-12-01T19:23:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re right. We would pay no attention to them—because what they believe would have no basis in reality. Heterosexual sex, like it or not, is how we all got here. It is how nature designed our continuance. It is the natural and healthy drive that passes one’s gene’s on. Homosexual sex enjoys no special place like that. Look at the sweep of history; homosexuality was at times, like in periods of Ancient Greece, accepted—but as a dalliance. The only point I’m trying to make here is that trying to equate homosexuality with heterosexuality—from a societal standpoint—is absurd in the extreme. Hehe, the Catholic Church generally preaches that heterosexual sex is an inherent moral evil too. 😉 I guess anyone who is up in arms about this has never read anything St. Paul had to say about sex in general. Basically that sex is for purely procreative, and that you should be preparing yourself for the afterlife, not for life in the here and now, but if you MUST, then at least do it with your wife. The Catholic church is pretty much against sex in general. It’s just that homosexual sex doesn’t have the procreative aspect, and as such is viewed as immoral but I don’t think it’s viewed as any more immoral than having a hetero threesome, or masturbating ten times a day, or being promiscuous, or being polygamous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-people-consider-the-catholic-church-a-hate-group/519558.md?page=5)