# Why don't pro life activists portray abortion as a woman's rights issue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251 "2017-01-26T20:11:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/61 "2017-01-30T01:02:22Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > You identified good reasons for being pro-choice. I find one of the few ways to convince pro-lifers is to show them that banning or restricting abortion doesn’t decrease abortions, it just hurts women, and that countries with the lowest abortion rates have safe and legalized abortion. Maybe you’ve seen [this blog post.](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html) That’s what cracked the foundation of her belief. Not arguing against abortion, but I was curious what countries have the lowest abortion. It’s: Zambia - not safe at all India - a woman dies every two hours from unsafe abortions, and sex selection has resulting in a gender disparity South Africa - 5% of maternal deaths following childbirth are abortion related, and 57% of these are related to illegal abortions. Backstreet abortion deaths have gone down. Bangladesh - illegal except when the woman’s life is in danger. They use something called “menstrual regulation.” Sounds like the author isn’t a native English speaker but it sounds like women are more likely to die from abortions than childbirth. Article feels a bit biased though. [Abortion in Bangladesh - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Bangladesh) Spain - legal, abortion rates going up. Sounds like the availability of birth control and education leads to fewer abortions, not the legality of abortion. Not that abortion should be criminalized since as you say, women will do it anyway, in unsafe ways. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/62 "2017-01-30T12:02:59Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > When I was in the Social Services waiting room, I met a woman who had listened to the anti-abortion crowd and given birth. She and her three year old daughter were now homeless, living in a shelter, and just in a terrible place. She was trying to get help. > > Where were the “pro-life” crowds then? Off harassing some other pregnant person? Saving her from being trapped in poverty, I am reliably informed. > [@puddleglum](#): > > Comprehensive sex education does not reduce pregnancies or abortions and everyone in the US already has access to affordable birth control. …largely because of Planned Parenthood. > [@](#): > > 22 states have Republican control of the both legislatures and the governorship for the last 4 years none of them has attempted to make birth control illegal. But many have specifically worked to remove - or attempted to - women’s birth control from insurance coverage despite the many non-birth control uses for it, the actual hardships this would cause and the continued support for coverage of drugs like Viagra (Rick Santorum made this one of the planks of his campaign platform). And worked hard to close down women’s health centers, which for many women have been the only source of affordable birth control. And treated any woman who dared to suggest that birth control pills should be treated like the medication they are as a sex-crazed slut. But hey, at least they haven’t tried to make it illegal. > [@](#): > > Welfare reform cut welfare and child poverty decreased. Cite? Because I suspect there’s more to it than “give poor people less money and they’ll do better”. ETA: Anyway, there’s more to welfare than just handing over money. Access to affordable (or even subsidized) childcare and pre-school programs would both benefit poor children and allow poor mothers more opportunity to work their way out of poverty. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/63 "2017-01-30T13:10:34Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > [Click here](http://www.prolife.com/birthcnt.html) > > Or just google “the pill abortions” and see how the anti-abortion crowd feels on the subject. Do you have a cite for what you claimed, which was > [@](#): > > The vast majority of “pro-life” people oppose the Pill (which makes the uterus hostile to a fertilized egg) and the IUD (ditto), two of the most effective contraceptives. TIA. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/64 "2017-01-30T14:39:10Z")
Well, the Pill and the IUD both can prevent the conception of a fertilized egg. If life begins at conception, that is murder. Either they oppose this, or they are hypocrits. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/65 "2017-01-30T15:29:04Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Well, the Pill and the IUD both can prevent the conception of a fertilized egg. If life begins at conception, that is murder. Either they oppose this, or they are hypocrits. Likewise, most IVF treatment will involve the destruction of fertilized eggs. So any “life begins at conception” law will put a huge burden on IVF clinics and patients. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/66 "2017-01-30T20:20:19Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Here’s another weird moral example: people who think abortion is murder, unless the mother is raped, then it’s acceptable to murder the baby for the sin of the father. A lot of the time this is just political expediency, but you can find plenty of people who believe this makes sense. If they’re Christian they believe in original sin, so maybe not too surprising. Yes! I have argued this exact point. There is no moral high ground in an anti-abortion stance that accepts exclusions based on rape and/or incest. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/67 "2017-01-31T15:51:23Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Cite? Google finds several contrary cites, [for example a 30% drop in Hawaii’s abortion rate that coincided with major education efforts.](http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15174/) [Here](http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/marriage-and-family/sexuality/does-anything-work-in-sex-education.html)is an article that mention a study that included 26 programs and found that they did not work and another that did a meta analysis of 300 programs and found that most did not work. Those studies that show sex education working are mostly a result of data mining. As your link says, Hawaii’s drop happened during a time when abortion rates were falling nationwide and other states had their rates fall just as much with no coinciding education changes. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/68 "2017-01-31T16:07:57Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > …largely because of Planned Parenthood. Almost solely because cheap. reliable birth control is available at every drug store, grocery stores, Walmart, or Target in the country. > [@](#): > > But many have specifically worked to remove - or attempted to - women’s birth control from insurance coverage despite the many non-birth control uses for it, the actual hardships this would cause and the continued support for coverage of drugs like Viagra (Rick Santorum made this one of the planks of his campaign platform). Birth control is not an insurable event. Insurance is for large unforeseeable expenses. Birth control is cheap, repetitive, and almost everyone uses it. Mandating insurance pay for it just makes insurance more expensive which hurts poor people who have trouble paying for insurance. > [@](#): > > And worked hard to close down women’s health centers, which for many women have been the only source of affordable birth control. Only source for women who can’t afford 10 bucks for condoms? > [@](#): > > And treated any woman who dared to suggest that birth control pills should be treated like the medication they are as a sex-crazed slut. I remember all the Republicans who went nuts when Trump said birth control pills should be available over the counter, or when the Senate Republicans [tried](http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/243112-senate-republicans-call-for-over-the-counter-birth-control)to pass a bill so birth control pills could be available over the counter. > [@](#): > > But hey, at least they haven’t tried to make it illegal. It is good you recognize your initial claim was wrong. > [@](#): > > Cite? Because I suspect there’s more to it than “give poor people less money and they’ll do better”. People stopped getting money and got jobs which lead them to get out of [poverty](http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2016/08/did-welfare-reform-increase-extreme-poverty-in-the-united-states). > [@](#): > > ETA: Anyway, there’s more to welfare than just handing over money. Access to affordable (or even subsidized) childcare and pre-school programs would both benefit poor children and allow poor mothers more opportunity to work their way out of poverty. It is conceivable to design a program that would benefit children and poor mothers, but we do not live in the ideal world of welfare so we have to evaluate what has happened in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/69 "2017-01-31T16:09:07Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Well, the Pill and the IUD both can prevent the conception of a fertilized egg. If life begins at conception, that is murder. Either they oppose this, or they are hypocrits. So is this your way of admitting you were wrong about pro-life people being anti-contraception? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/70 "2017-01-31T20:23:10Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > So is this your way of admitting you were wrong about pro-life people being anti-contraception? What’s wrong about that? There is a very high correlation between pro-life views and opposition to contraception. Both are taught in a great many churches in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/71 "2017-01-31T23:07:55Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What’s wrong about that? There is a very high correlation between pro-life views and opposition to contraception. Both are taught in a great many churches in the U.S. There is almost no political opposition to contraception in America. The poll I found said that 8% of Americans want to legally restrict contraception. That is about the same as believe the moon landing is a hoax. Given that 55% or so of America is wants legal restrictions on abortion mathematically the overwhelming majority of pro-life people do not want to restrict contraception. Politically there were 57 anti-abortion laws passed at the state level in 2015 alone. There have not been any anti-contraception laws passed at any level. Yet in every abortion debate someone tries to bring up the canard that pro-lifers want to ban contraception. Yet they never cite a poll or any actual legislation. It is just a way to change the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/72 "2017-02-01T02:25:21Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There is almost no political opposition to contraception in America. The poll I found said that 8% of Americans want to legally restrict contraception. . . . And the proportion among those who oppose abortion is much higher, which negates your claim that **Annie-Xmas** was wrong in her observation. What you just posted is true…and does not in any way refute what I said. There is a significant church opposition to contraception. (Ever heard of the Catholics?) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/73 "2017-02-01T02:57:50Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > My idea is not so much “you can’t be pro-woman if you’re support killing baby girls.” as abortion _disproportionately_ effects baby girls - which of course is very nuanced but none the less a little different. I haven’t read the entire thread yet, but up to the point of the quoted post you haven’t established that “abortion _disproportionately_ effects baby girls”, at least insofar as the U.S., Canada, Aus/N.Z., and Europe\* are concerned. \*i.e., the locations of almost all of the people reading this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/74 "2017-02-01T03:59:31Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > They do use this argument, sometimes. I’ve also seen arguments (based on dubious facts) about the psychological impact to women who have abortions. In fact, if you listen in-depth to a well-versed pro-lifer, you can hear probably dozens of arguments about why it’s a bad thing. > > But the reason you don’t hear those arguments very often is that, on contentious issues, the most impactful argument is the one that’s heard. It boils down the best, it provides the best sound-bytes, and it evokes an emotional reaction. “Abortion = Murder” is incredibly clear and fits easily on a poster. “Abortion historically has resulted in more female fetuses aborted which reinforces societal views that women are less valuable than men…” and you’re definitely out of poster space, and probably a good third of people you’re talking to have lost the point. And the more complicated argument is in some ways a weaker argument. Anti-murder and Pro-personal choice are much stronger positions, so if you think either of those arguments are correct, the statistical impact on society argument is simply irrelevant. > > Also, the people _talking_ about abortion are very much not a representative sample of what the average person thinks. They are generally the most extreme in their views. Someone who thinks that abortion is a morally murky problem that doesn’t have obvious solutions is not going to march, or attempt to influence policy, or even really try to convince many others to share that view. There’s a far more insidious reason for the ‘abortion=murder’ slogan. If pro-lifers can associate abortion with murder they have a societally acceptable way to try to outlaw it. Hence the argument that life begins at conception. That way, _all_ abortion is bad and can be outlawed to their minds, because the Church says so…whichever Church it happens to be. (Notice that the Bible doesn’t.) Just another way for conservatives to control others’ lives, probably their favorite pursuit, aside from keeping theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/75 "2017-02-01T04:16:09Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > with sex typing in the womb that the selective nature of choice could easily lead to a similar situation to what was had in say China? Sex-selective abortion/gendercide has actually boosted feminism in China, IIRC. The outnumbered gender holds more clout, at least in dating and marriage. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/76 "2017-02-01T05:36:09Z")
There is also a segment that is white nationalist etc… > [@](#): > > Aryan Nations racist political positions > > Opposes White abortion. 93% of all abortions since 1972 have been White. 60 million Whites > have been exterminated in a self-induced program of genocide against our Race. While it is > obvious that women have rights, the right to murder their own children is not acceptable. The > economic pressures that drive men and women to abandon the family must cease. They can’t humanize it as a right because they need this foreign enemy to keep their group whole. And that is a common thing for lots of mass movements. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/77 "2017-02-01T05:40:11Z")
Wonder why there isn’t a movement whereby KKKers would try to increase black abortions as much as possible and Black Panthers would try to increase white abortions as much as possible. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/78 "2017-02-01T05:45:09Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Wonder why there isn’t a movement whereby KKKers would try to increase black abortions as much as possible and Black Panthers would try to increase white abortions as much as possible. The Aryan Nations believes there is one going on, but just “race mixing” is enough for them to call it that, no abortion required to commit “white genocide”. This is why you can’t use just addressing fears with that extreme view like you can with most people. More Aryan Nation BS > [@](#): > > WHEREAS: The United non-White races of the under the guidance and leadership of Jewry, an international mongrelized mixture, are in the process of culminating their ancient war for the total extinction of our racial seedline, ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/79 "2017-02-01T14:32:25Z")
An anti-abortion protester once asked me “Suppose that science identifies the gay gene, and a strict Christian couple find out their unborn child has this gene. Should they be allowed to abort it?” When I said “If that’s what they want to do, yes” his jaw just dropped. “You would support abortion a child for being homosexual?” “Yes, if that’s what they want to do” I repeated. He had no answer for that. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/80 "2017-02-01T15:12:56Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > An anti-abortion protester once asked me “Suppose that science identifies the gay gene, and a strict Christian couple find out their unborn child has this gene. Should they be allowed to abort it?” > > When I said “If that’s what they want to do, yes” his jaw just dropped. “You would support abortion a child for being homosexual?” “Yes, if that’s what they want to do” I repeated. > > He had no answer for that. I also have no answer for that. I think it’s messed up. I’m generally ok with very early term abortion or any case where the mother’s life is in real danger, but I do think there’s a point in fetal development where it’s wrong. I don’t have that point nailed down to a perfect definition. And it’s not about wanting to control anyone’s body. It’s about a human’s right to live. Obviously, we’re not going to see eye to eye and we’re not going to change anyone’s mind. I’m not utterly dumbfounded that you and others feel the way you do and I think I’m probably in the minority. Especially as I’m not religious. All that said, that’s why many pro-lifers are willing to give some ground on special cases like rape or incest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251.md?page=5)