# Why don't pro life activists portray abortion as a woman's rights issue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251 "2017-01-26T20:11:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/101 "2017-02-02T22:30:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Did you mean the unmarried teen pregnancy rate? No. > [@](#): > > Making assertions without proof is what makes something not credible. > > Regards, > Shodan Every assertion requires proof? I stated evidence. If you have contrary evidence, I’m all ears. I didn’t think my assertion – that education about contraceptives has something to do with increased usage of contraceptives – was that controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/102 "2017-02-02T22:32:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Okay, then let’s see a cite of a well-constructed study that showed that teaching about, for instance, sexually transmitted diseases reduces the pregnancy rates for unwed teenagers. . . . Non sequitur, dude. That doesn’t even begin to make sense. Show me how driving education in schools reduces the obesity rate. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/103 "2017-02-03T02:16:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Every assertion requires proof? In GD? Yes. > [@](#): > > I didn’t think my assertion – that education about contraceptives has something to do with increased usage of contraceptives – was that controversial. Did you not read **puddleglum** ’s cites? > [@Trinopus](#): > > Non sequitur, dude. That doesn’t even begin to make sense. > > Show me how driving education in schools reduces the obesity rate. You claimed > [@](#): > > What it does work at is teaching kids the facts of life. Where babies come from. What menstruation means. What wet dreams mean. Where the ovaries are. And also about sexually transmitted diseases. When you said that these things “work”, were you talking about the subject of the thread, or something else? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/104 "2017-02-03T02:32:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > . . . You claimed When you said that these things “work”, were you talking about the subject of the thread, or something else? . . . You seem to be conflating two different things I said. Sex education helps a little to reduce the rate of unwanted teenage pregnancy. Sex education works to educate young adults about the workings of their own bodies. (The “subject of the thread” is different from both of these; there has been some topic drift.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/105 "2017-02-03T10:17:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In GD? Yes. Prove it, then. Not just evidence, as I presented, but irrefutable proof. It’s news to me that GD can’t include controversial topics that haven’t been proven. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/106 "2017-02-03T14:38:18Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > So is this your way of admitting you were wrong about pro-life people being anti-contraception? No, but they are against any contraception that works by preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. They think it’s the same as killing a human being, ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/107 "2017-02-03T19:22:04Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > No, but they are against any contraception that works by preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. They think it’s the same as killing a human being, I don’t think that. I don’t think most pro-lifers think that. I don’t think even most Catholics think that. Would be interested in the data, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/108 "2017-02-03T20:27:29Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Right, this argument only really applies to China. I think in Britain you can have an abortion if you are not happy with the sex of the baby. It’s a woman’s right to choose the sex. A lot of people of course don’t want girls. This is of course especially true in certain cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/109 "2017-02-03T22:12:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > You’re right, infanticide doesn’t enter into it. Infanticide is not abortion, as even you note. The thing is, everyone doesn’t generally agree that abortion is murder. Matter of fact, it appears to be split pretty much down the middle. But the right _defines_ it as murder for its own purposes, and assumes it has the right to choose _for_ the women in question, even to the point of making them into baby factories. An entirely different thing, and it definitely does amount to controlling others’ lives without regard for those persons in the slightest, nor societal agreement on the fact. > > Personally, I find your argument weak and unfounded. Oddly, I don’t remember even bringing up infanticide. Matter of fact, I didn’t. I alluded to them in my above post, but look up Jacob Appel and Peter Singer both of whom have argued that a consistent pro-choice also supports infanticide and argues in favour of such. This, of course, depends partially on when a given pro-choicer sets a limit on abortion be it start of brain wave activities, viability, or birth. And lots of other moral legislation such as say civil rights legislation prohibiting discrimnation didn’t have societal consensus either. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/110 "2017-02-04T02:58:00Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I alluded to them in my above post, but look up Jacob Appel and Peter Singer both of whom have argued that a consistent pro-choice also supports infanticide and argues in favour of such. This, of course, depends partially on when a given pro-choicer sets a limit on abortion be it start of brain wave activities, viability, or birth. And lots of other moral legislation such as say civil rights legislation prohibiting discrimnation didn’t have societal consensus either. So what? Infanticide is not part of the abortion debate and never has been. A couple of cranks drawing a parallel between abortion and infanticide doesn’t change that. But let’s extend that. Since pro-choicers should be in support of abortion and infanticide, they should support any murder then, right? Yeahrite, I call bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/111 "2017-02-04T04:29:42Z")
The infanticide issue pops up, now and then, in the context of the most severely defective and deformed babies, such as babies born without a brain, or with their viscera missing, etc. Babies who are going to die in the next few days anyway, sometimes in horrible pain. It’s a counterpart to the euthanasia debate, for adults suffering from severe pain in untreatable and terminal illnesses. There really is a serious moral question involved: why should such a baby be kept alive? What possible benefit is there in that? As with euthanasia, there is a significant correlation with pro-choice views on abortion. A pro-life person generally opposes both euthanasia and infanticide, no matter how extreme the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/112 "2017-02-04T06:56:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The infanticide issue pops up, now and then, in the context of the most severely defective and deformed babies, such as babies born without a brain, or with their viscera missing, etc. Babies who are going to die in the next few days anyway, sometimes in horrible pain. > > It’s a counterpart to the euthanasia debate, for adults suffering from severe pain in untreatable and terminal illnesses. > > There really is a serious moral question involved: why should such a baby be kept alive? What possible benefit is there in that? > > As with euthanasia, there is a significant correlation with pro-choice views on abortion. A pro-life person generally opposes both euthanasia and infanticide, no matter how extreme the circumstances. There should be some more specific term, since infanticide also refers to leaving a baby out next to the dumpster. The way you define it gets awfully close to eugenics for my taste. Where do you draw the line with that? How nonviable is nonviable? The infant is inarguably living to begin with, unlike with the abortion debate. Euthanasia is (generally) a choice made by the patient, who is an adult and theoretically capable of decision-making, and also inarguably living. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/113 "2017-02-04T07:06:00Z")
Missed the edit window as I waxed lyrical. I have personal experience with the euthanasia debate. My father was diagnosed with brain cancer and eventually written off as terminal. The result was that doctors would do nothing more than prescribe ever-increasing amounts of morphine. He literally begged my mother to kill him in moments of lucidity (and there were only moments at that point, as the morphine pretty much crushed his personality). Even if it were legal, I doubt she would have done it, but the calculus might have been a bit different if it had been legal. You had to see what his quality of life (or lack of same) was at that point. It took him six months of living on morphine to die. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/114 "2017-02-04T20:23:08Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > . . . The way you define it gets awfully close to eugenics for my taste. Where do you draw the line with that? How nonviable is nonviable? . . . Eugenics isn’t always bad. I know someone who is a carrier of a genetic disorder, who chose never to have babies, for risk of them expressing the disorder (sex linked) in the form of a horrible and deadly disease. This is an eugenic decision, and morally defensible. As for drawing the line and defining viable…no possible answer. Lots of things can’t be defined explicitly, and lots of lines can’t be drawn. When, exactly, is a fetus viable? We have to sort of muddle through, in a great many (too many!) cases. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/115 "2017-02-06T15:08:57Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I don’t think that. I don’t think most pro-lifers think that. I don’t think even most Catholics think that. Would be interested in the data, though. If life begins at conception, then all embryos are alive. And preventing implantation (food and shelter] is murder. And aren’t most Catholics against ANY form of birth control? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/116 "2017-02-07T18:18:57Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > … > And aren’t most Catholics against ANY form of birth control? No, I do not believe most are. There’s the “official” church stance and then there’s real life. I said before I’d like to see the data, so I went out and found some. > [@](#): > > …Gallup did a special breakdown of its “Values and Beliefs” survey… > Catholics were only slightly less open to birth control, with 86 percent of them saying that it was “morally acceptable” in comparison with 90 percent of all respondents. [https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-pope-francis-birth-control-and-american-catholics.html?\_r=0](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-pope-francis-birth-control-and-american-catholics.html?_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251/117 "2017-02-08T00:28:59Z")
Thank you, **Barkis is Willin’**! I knew that there was significant popular dissent in the Catholic Church on this topic, but, whoa! I would have never dreamed it was that high. Can you tell me, though, whether that was a statistic for all Catholics world-wide, or just U.S. Catholics? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-pro-life-activists-portray-abortion-as-a-womans-rights-issue/778251.md?page=5)