# Why don't stray dogs form packs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2004, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097 "2004-12-10T10:17:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voluble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/4af34b/32.png) [@Voluble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voluble)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/21 "2004-12-11T17:10:51Z")
I don’t know about urban areas but in the suburbs and further out it is common for stray dogs to form packs. My father owned a cattle farm and it was not unusual to lose calves to packs of feral dogs. Cattle have been bred to be prey animals by profession so they don’t even put up a good fight. If it wasn’t for their size a pack of dogs would wipe out the entire herd in short order. I imagine the pack behavior is more common when numbers are useful in providing food, such as bringing down a calf. Where the main food source is scavenged garbage they aren’t really necessary so you may get small groups for companionship etc… ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/22 "2004-12-11T17:22:15Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > So consensus is that Moscow is the only known place where strays _don’t_ form packs? That makes me even more curious. Why wouldn’t they do that here? Any ideas at all? Is it possible that the cops shoot the packs, but can’t be bothered with the ordinary strays? (Since you asked for any ideas at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cooper)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/23 "2004-12-11T18:01:07Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > So consensus is that Moscow is the only known place where strays _don’t_ form packs? That makes me even more curious. Why wouldn’t they do that here? Any ideas at all? I remember seeing a few strays in moscow, but not often the same one twice. It may be that the life of a stray is rather short, that they have lots being turned out but animal control picks them up rather quickly? Another possibility is that any _pack_ will be picked up real quickly, but they ignore single stray dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/24 "2004-12-12T05:55:46Z")
> [@11811](#): > > Crandolph, > > I see you’re in Philadelphia. There is or was at least one pack of feral dogs roaming Fairmount Park in recent years. Wouldn’t be surprised…but Fairmount Park is MASSIVE, 9x larger than Central Park & the world’s largest urban park system. That’s a big difference than roaming around downtown Kathmandu. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/25 "2004-12-12T06:07:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Speaking of dangerous feral dogs are there any actual stories of people in the US getting attacked by these packs? Wasn’t there a story of a woman killed a couple of years ago in Washington (or was it Jefferson) Park by pit bulls that had been let go and formed a pack? I tried searching the Sun Times and Tribune, but couldn’t find anything. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/26 "2004-12-12T06:33:40Z")
Rural Atrkansas: Not to many big packs of really gone to feral dogs, folk out here got guns but the stray do pack up often. Once I went up to a pnd in shorts and flipflops to check a water line and did not take a gun as I usually did… Big mistake … a dog pack of about 7-8 came by and most stayed away from me as I just stopped and waited for them to leave. Two did not. Not a stick or rock to be had and I got some growling crfitters advancing on me. I was close nuff to the house to scream for a gun but the wife could not hear me as she was inside vacuming. They were between me and the house. They stopped and just watched me so I tried to ease away form them and they would advance growling until I stood still again. After a couple of thses, they began to advance slowly and stop, advance and stop. So in desperation I made a sudden and wild screaming charge at them waving my hands etc. I did not think they were going to breake but at about 10 feet, they broke and split away and I made about 100 feet and stopped and turned as I had come to a large stick in the field. I grabbed that and watched as the started towards me slowly. I raised the stick and they stopped so I kept it raised and backed towards the house. Got on the porch, got the door open and grabbed the .22 rifle that was by the door. As soon as the dogs saw me raise the gun to my shoulder, they took off like they knew what a gun was. I missed them but they were a bit of a distance and I don’t think I was too steady anyway. While I was at that location, about 4 years, I shot 5 dogs, among other critters in theyard, that were traveling in packs chasing the cattle (3) and two that were agressive in the yard. It was not that unusal in that area. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/27 "2004-12-12T13:38:47Z")
> [@Laughing Lagomorph](#): > > Totally WAG: Maybe whatever they are subsisting on (garbage?) is not abundant enough to support more than a few animals in any one territory? Seems strange, as there are very many of them; they just don’t live in packs. **Rube E. Tewesday** ’s and **Cooper** ’s ideas are both possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/28 "2004-12-12T13:58:55Z")
When I was ten years old, my pony was killed and partly eaten by a pack of stray dogs that got into the barn because the lock on the door had broken (they squeezed in through an opening about one foot wide). When I entered the barn to feed her that morning, I was _incredibly_ traumatized. ☹ The sheriff found the dogs the next day, and shot and killed all five of them. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/29 "2004-12-12T15:39:32Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > Wasn’t there a story of a woman killed a couple of years ago in Washington (or was it Jefferson) Park by pit bulls that had been let go and formed a pack? I tried searching the Sun Times and Tribune, but couldn’t find anything. Ah, it was only [two dogs](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/13/eveningnews/main536337.shtml). Probably doesn’t constitute a pack. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/30 "2004-12-12T16:57:17Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Rural Atrkansas: > > Not to many big packs of really gone to feral dogs, folk out here got guns but the stray do pack up often. > > Once I went up to a pnd in shorts and flipflops to check a water line and did not take a gun as I usually did… Big mistake … a dog pack of about 7-8 came by and most stayed away from me as I just stopped and waited for them to leave. Two did not. Not a stick or rock to be had and I got some growling crfitters advancing on me. I was close nuff to the house to scream for a gun but the wife could not hear me as she was inside vacuming. > > They were between me and the house. They stopped and just watched me so I tried to ease away form them and they would advance growling until I stood still again. After a couple of thses, they began to advance slowly and stop, advance and stop. So in desperation **I made a sudden and wild screaming charge at them waving my hands etc.** I did not think they were going to breake but at about 10 feet, they broke and split away and I made about 100 feet and stopped and turned as I had come to a large stick in the field. I grabbed that and watched as the started towards me slowly. I raised the stick and they stopped so I kept it raised and backed towards the house. Got on the porch, got the door open and grabbed the .22 rifle that was by the door. As soon as the dogs saw me raise the gun to my shoulder, they took off like they knew what a gun was. I missed them but they were a bit of a distance and I don’t think I was too steady anyway. > > While I was at that location, about 4 years, I shot 5 dogs, among other critters in theyard, that were traveling in packs chasing the cattle (3) and two that were agressive in the yard. > > It was not that unusal in that area. Good thing you made it to the house before them. My experiences with stray and roaming dogs has been that singly and in pairs they will respond very well to intimidation. I wouldn’t want to have to remind a whole pack that I’m bigger than them. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/31 "2004-12-12T18:29:22Z")
They do. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/32 "2004-12-12T21:19:42Z")
I would suggest that you might not be fully informed on the situation from your visit. I’ve read plenty of reports of dog packs in Moscow. [Pravda article](http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/97/384/13799_dogs.html): > [@](#): > > Elizaveta Sukhova had to stay in hospital for over a month to recover from lacerations to her legs, hands and arms. “A pack of rabid dogs appeared at the power station where I worked. We tried not to approach them alone, but that day I had to walk past them on my own. The dogs cornered me. They were as wild as wolves. I screamed, workers rushed to help me and called an ambulance,” Elizaveta says. > > “People are often to blame for making pets behave like wild predators,” EMERCOM vet Yulia Milenina says. “People buy animals for fun. Not all of them think it"s a big responsibility. The majority of street animals used to be pets. When they find themselves alone in the street, they grow wild, breed and spread infections. Needless to say, nobody inoculates them, and they become dangerous. Packs of abandoned dogs are a common sight in Moscow.” ---
**Author:** ![Julius\_Henry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@Julius\_Henry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Julius_Henry)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/33 "2004-12-12T22:31:25Z")
Here’s a [cite](http://www.mopetsmag.com/2001_Editorial.htm) about the problem we’ve had in St. Louis in the past few years. The first paragraph reads: > [@](#): > > While working as an elephant keeper at the Saint Louis Zoological Park in May 1986, we experienced a problem with stray dogs. Packs of dogs were coming on the zoo grounds, chasing peacocks and other animals. One morning while walking toward the Elephant House, I heard a series of shots ring out. A few minutes later, Donn Gibson, the elephant trainer, informed me a park ranger had shot and wounded two members of a pack of dogs that had just killed a blesbok, a rare deer, in the antelope area. A few days later, the two wounded dogs were found dead in Forest Park. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/34 "2004-12-12T23:26:09Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Seems strange, as there are very many of them; they just don’t live in packs. > > **Rube E. Tewesday** ’s and **Cooper** ’s ideas are both possibilities. My point is they wouldn’t NEED to form a pack if they could get enough food singly or in small groups, regardless of their numbers and/or local density. But I agree with you that **Cooper** and **Rube** are probably on the right track. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/35 "2004-12-12T23:40:10Z")
> [@](#): > > _Laughing Lagomorph said:_ > My point is they wouldn’t NEED to form a pack if they could get enough food singly or in small groups, regardless of their numbers and/or local density. Need has little to do with it I think. Dogs are social animals and group instinctively. I doubt they get much more food in the city by travelling in packs. Also they DO form packs in Moscow according to news reports. The OP seems incorrect in his informal survey of Moscow feral dog life. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/36 "2004-12-12T23:54:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > … > > Also they DO form packs in Moscow according to news reports. The OP seems incorrect in his informal survey of Moscow feral dog life. Well, that was going to be my first reply but I erased it. I doubt an exhaustive scientific survey of the living arrangements of the feral canines in the Greater Moscow metropolitan area has been done by anyone, and anecdotal observations could be deceptive. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/37 "2004-12-13T04:10:36Z")
> [@Jonathan Woodall](#): > > Where did you and Ty live, out of curiousity? Semi-rural Maryland. Farms and single-family housing liberally mixed, with moderately large patches of untouched woods in the bargain. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/38 "2004-12-13T04:19:24Z")
> [@Shirley Ujest](#): > > I gots to know: > > What kind of dog was Ty and was he ok after this brave defense? YAY for your dad, too! German shorthair. 85lbm of muscle, brains, and teeth. _Very_ fit dog - He got a lot of running - I was into sports every season at school, and took him with me when I went running. When he was outside without me, he’d run around the rope-run just for the hell of it. The doghouse was made of a shipping crate for a tank transmission - 3"x4" oak side slats, and the uprights were even tougher. The box couldn’t be moved except by two strong men - Once Ty backed into the box, the only thing available to bite was his head, which bit back. Dad, he’s just a seriously deadly shot, and totally calm in danger situations. He went out and unloaded his Colt into the surviving pack members. None of the dogs got more than two lengths from the doghouse. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/39 "2004-12-13T04:20:41Z")
Oh, and the only damage to Ty was some minor tears to his lips and a some bite wounds on his muzzle and forehead. Nothing even stitch-worthy. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097/40 "2004-12-14T09:37:47Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Also they DO form packs in Moscow according to news reports. The OP seems incorrect in his informal survey of Moscow feral dog life. Really? Got a link? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-stray-dogs-form-packs/279097.md?page=3)