# Why don't the Harry Potter books feel like fantasy novels? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 9, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725 "2014-04-09T15:58:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/21 "2014-04-09T19:41:04Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > How about this? The reader is immersed into the magical world of Hogwarts along with Harry. So instead of a lot of exposition explaining what the magic is, we just learn about it along with Harry. Do we really want three chapters of Prof. Binn’s lectures? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/22 "2014-04-09T21:21:02Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > I certainly did not divide things between fantasy and not fantasy - I said “other fantasy” and “typical fantasy.” You didn’t explicitly say that, but you did say something which, I think, implies it: > [@dracoi](#): > > Harry Potter is certainly different from other fantasy series in many ways. For one thing, it’s still placed in modern Earth. (As Muggles, we just don’t know magic is real.) For another thing, it follows kids through school, so the daily activities of the characters are still rooted in things we’re very familiar with as readers. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/23 "2014-04-09T21:42:36Z")
HP has a huge element of wish-fulfillment, somewhat like the Willy Wonka world, which just makes it a different feel. And I think there’s a big difference when you are being introduced into a world with the POV character and when the POV character is already immersed in the world. The former is more accessible and usually requires anything magical or supernatural to be handled in a completely different way. “High fantasy” usually has POV characters who are already immersed. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/24 "2014-04-09T21:44:43Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The problem is more with Tolkien than anything else. Half the writers in the world want to imitate him (well, his sales numbers). But the fantasy world was a huge and disparate universe before the Tolkien clones took over. Any individual fantasy felt more different from any other than any individual science fiction work felt different from the others. There are lots and lots of people writing real, non-Tolkien fantasy and a search will bring up many threads in which people list their favorites. If there’s a big Tolkien “camp” in the genre, then this might be part of the problem. I have never read his books, but the movies bored me to death. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > An alternative point of view: it’s because the magic in Harry Potter is kind of bullshit. It’s really a story about how these kids get along with each other and grow up, with a lot of mysterious twists and turns along the way. I enjoyed the books very very much, mind you, but with the hilariously-delivered magic spells and the Quidditch and the pumpkin juice it’s so silly as to be cartoonish. I think that really might be it; the supernatural elements are so goofy and superficial that they don’t trip any kind of sensitivity you might have to flowery fantasy prose or world-building. There’s certainly a lot of truth in this. When I think about the enjoyable parts of the HP books it’s seeing how the kids grow and how relationships form and change. It’s seldom actually about the magic itself, per se. > [@Cartoonacy](#): > > Maybe \*\*Rodgers01 \*\*hasn’t had much experience with “low fantasy,” and might enjoy some other examples. Might I recommend Jim Butcher’s Harry Dresden novels, or Randall Garrett’s Lord Darcy stories (“Murder and Magic,” a collection of four novellas, and “Too Many Magicians,” a full-length novel). Both are detective series of a sort, involving murder investigations in worlds where magic works. (The world of the Dresden novels is close to our own, but the Darcy stories have more of a Victorian feel.) Truthfully, I haven’t made it through much fantasy high or low. I liked the Narnia and Oz books as a kid but as I got older and people would recommend other books to me (I wish I could remember names…) I would never be able to make it all the way through. I still see fantasy movies sometimes if I’m with friends, but it’s almost never my thing. But if “low fantasy” is what HP is and there are other books like it…well, thanks for the recommendations! ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/25 "2014-04-09T21:52:10Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > But if “low fantasy” is what HP is and there are other books like it…well, thanks for the recommendations! “High” and “low” refer to the amount of fantastical elements in a story. “High fantasy” has lots of dragons and elves and wizards and magical artifacts. “Low fantasy” has a relatively realistic setting (maybe medieval, maybe contemporary) where magic exists, but is rare and/or of limited use, and many people may not even believe in it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/26 "2014-04-09T21:58:33Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > And I think there’s a big difference when you are being introduced into a world with the POV character and when the POV character is already immersed in the world. The former is more accessible and usually requires anything magical or supernatural to be handled in a completely different way. “High fantasy” usually has POV characters who are already immersed. True, and I think that’s why, even though I like fantasy, I’ve found some fantasies hard to get into. But I don’t think it’s necessarily true, or even typical, of high fantasy in general (at least, depending on what you count as [“high fantasy”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fantasy)). An author can get around this by making the POV character someone from our world who travels to the fantasy world; or, as Tolkien does in _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_, making the POV character one who is relatively provincial and has little experience with the world. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/27 "2014-04-09T22:01:02Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > HP has a huge element of wish-fulfillment, somewhat like the Willy Wonka world, which just makes it a different feel. Funny you mention Willy Wonka…I loved all the Roald Dahl books as a kid, but it never would have occurred to me then or now to refer to them as fantasy novels, though god knows they are, what with the witches, giants, talking foxes, and Oompa Loompas. > [@Cartoonacy](#): > > “High” and “low” refer to the amount of fantastical elements in a story. “High fantasy” has lots of dragons and elves and wizards and magical artifacts. “Low fantasy” has a relatively realistic setting (maybe medieval, maybe contemporary) where magic exists, but is rare and/or of limited use, and many people may not even believe in it. This is very helpful - thanks for the clarification. I guess my problem is just with high fantasy! ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/28 "2014-04-09T22:05:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because magic in the Potter universe is not used as a _deus ex machina_ or an easy solution to a plot problem. Rowling plays fair, for the most part. Yes, there’s magic, but it operates in accordance with the logic of the plot. I don’t think that’s unique. Most decently-written fantasy involving magic or something like it plays fair, setting up capabilities and limits and then remaining within them. It’s a pretty poor grade of cheese that has “magic” pulled out of the writer’s ass. I am fond of Lawrence Watt-Evans’ Ethshar novels for that reason. There are five or six different schools of magic, each carefully outlined and explained over time, and the limitations of each type are more likely to shape stories than the capabilities. It’s almost not fantasy, and while I don’t much care for HP, I’d agree that the series is only very slightly fantasy in genre and approach. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/29 "2014-04-09T22:08:22Z")
I think it might be more of a difference between “epic fantasy” and “urban” (or “contemporary”) fantasy than “high” vs. “low.” I, for example, am not a big fan of Tolkien-style fantasy with elves and dragons and a medieval setting, but I love Shadowrun (which has elves, dragons, orcs, and all sorts of fantasy tropes–but it’s set in 2050-2070, so the world is relatable). Even medieval-style fantasy that doesn’t include lots of magic and mystical creatures/races doesn’t float my boat much anymore. I get too much of a “been there, done that” vibe from it. I don’t hate it, but I don’t choose to read it with my limited time anymore. “Urban fantasy” is a term that has (I think) drifted over the years. It used to describe fantasy based on a modern setting. However, it seems to have drifted to the point where if you say you write urban fantasy nowadays, most people’s minds go immediately to things like Twilight, with sexy vampires, female protagonists, and lots of romance. I was told at a writing seminar last year that “contemporary fantasy” is the way to describe what used to be “urban fantasy,” to separate the two. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/30 "2014-04-09T22:09:32Z")
Whether a book is “fantasy” depends on its **setting** , and/or the presence of magic or fantastical elements. But there are all sorts of different possibilities for what **type of story/plot** can be told within that setting. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/31 "2014-04-09T22:09:35Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Harry Potter is certainly different from other fantasy series in many ways. For one thing, it’s still placed in modern Earth. (As Muggles, we just don’t know magic is real.) For another thing, it follows kids through school, so the daily activities of the characters are still rooted in things we’re very familiar with as readers. > > The more typical fantasy literature out there tends to follow heroes on grand quests - think Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time for starters. It’s not our world, and they’re not doing things we’re familiar with. While Potter & Co. are fighting a war against a would-be fascist dictator. That’s something we **are** familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/32 "2014-04-09T22:11:33Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > Hah, I must’ve forgotten that. :smack: > > See, JK? **shakes fist** Just drop a little foreshadowing into your story in the first act. It’s the antidote to _deus ex_. :mad: 😃 The twin cores are set up several _books_ ahead of time, in the first book in the series, and the _effect_ of the two cores trying to do battle is acknowledge in-universe as being unpredictable. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/33 "2014-04-09T22:12:09Z")
> [@Cartoonacy](#): > > “High” and “low” refer to the amount of fantastical elements in a story. “High fantasy” has lots of dragons and elves and wizards and magical artifacts. “Low fantasy” has a relatively realistic setting (maybe medieval, maybe contemporary) where magic exists, but is rare and/or of limited use, and many people may not even believe in it. And then there’s “urban fantasy,” which is set in a contemporary city or cities. Usually, as in the Potterverse, most people are not affected by and don’t believe in magic. ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/34 "2014-04-09T22:12:56Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > There’s certainly a lot of truth in this. When I think about the enjoyable parts of the HP books it’s seeing how the kids grow and how relationships form and change. It’s seldom actually about the magic itself, per se. If that’s the case, you might consider Piers Anthony’s \*Xanth \*books, or Robert Aspirin’s _Myth Adventures_series. Both are lighthearted high fantasy, but character-driven with lots of humor. Beware, though: neither series is for the pun-intolerant. The \*Xanth \*books tend to be rather formulaic, but the concept is fun: Xanth is a hidden land where every inhabitant has a magical “talent” that is uniquely their own. (They refer to our outside world as “Mundania.”) In the first book, _A Spell for Chameleon_, a boy named Bink seems to be the only citizen who seems to have no talent, so he goes on a quest to find it. The _Myth Adventure_ series, beginning with _Another Fine Myth_, is about a pair of dimensional travelers (“demons” for short): an apprentice magician named Skeeve (from the dimension of Klah, making him a “klahd”), and his mentor, Aahs (from the world of Perv, making him a “pervect,” though most people tend to mispronounce it). Aspirin claimed that his intention was to create a fantasy version of the Bob Hope/Bing Crosby _Road to…_ movies. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/35 "2014-04-09T22:14:44Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > True, and I think that’s why, even though I like fantasy, I’ve found some fantasies hard to get into. But I don’t think it’s necessarily true, or even typical, of high fantasy in general (at least, depending on what you count as [“high fantasy”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fantasy)). An author can get around this by making the POV character someone from our world who travels to the fantasy world; or, as Tolkien does in _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_, making the POV character one who is relatively provincial and has little experience with the world. That’s true, though usually even the provincial character (a very common trope) has the sort of background where the basics of the world don’t need as much explaining. Usually. There are definitely exceptions. The true fish out of water stories are very VERY common in low fantasy and what I used to call urban fantasy until, as Infovore points out, “urban fantasy” now is often just paranormal romance (and ooky). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/36 "2014-04-09T22:25:55Z")
You may prefer Urban Fantasy like the works of Charles DeLint. They take place in the modern world and the magic is largely shielded from the normals or muggles. Some narrowing down questions: Did you like Buffy? Do you consider this show Fantasy, Super Hero like or Horror? Do you like shows like Grimm? Once Upon a Time? The first Highlander movie or the Show? Do you like Hercules or Xena? Pushing Daisies or Dead Like Me? ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/37 "2014-04-09T22:27:40Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > You may prefer Urban Fantasy like the works of Charles DeLint. They take place in the modern world and the magic is largely shielded from the normals or muggles. This is a good call. So would be a couple of Neil Gaiman novels, especially _Neverwhere_ and _American Gods_. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/38 "2014-04-09T22:28:12Z")
> [@Cartoonacy](#): > > “High” and “low” refer to the amount of fantastical elements in a story. “High fantasy” has lots of dragons and elves and wizards and magical artifacts. “Low fantasy” has a relatively realistic setting (maybe medieval, maybe contemporary) where magic exists, but is rare and/or of limited use, and many people may not even believe in it. Another reason that the Potter books don’t seem much akin to “high fantasy” is that HF is basically earnest. Yes, there may be a bit of fun poked at the Lower Orders (oh, those greedy and childlike hobbits Merry and Pippin, haha!)…but on the whole it’s fairly humorless. The first few Potter books, by contrast, are comic throughout (with an underlying thread of the High Serious that doesn’t dominate until later in the series). ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/39 "2014-04-09T22:34:11Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Harry Potter is certainly different from other fantasy series in many ways. For one thing, it’s still placed in modern Earth. (As Muggles, we just don’t know magic is real.) For another thing, it follows kids through school, so the daily activities of the characters are still rooted in things we’re very familiar with as readers. > > The more typical fantasy literature out there tends to follow heroes on grand quests - think Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time for starters. It’s not our world, and they’re not doing things we’re familiar with. I really believe this has more to do with it than anything else, and I think it has to do with vocabulary. The kids go to school on a train, attend classes taught by professors, take tests and do detention when they misbehave. They have feasts and play Quidditch. How much more “fantastic” would that all have felt if “Quidditch” hadn’t been the only word you’d never heard before reading the book? The weemonts go to Tess’la’rath on a mmmey, attended stourch taught by fargnarimpen, take hakkumae and do nogoemhafun when they misbehave. They have gobstuffin and play Quidditch. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725/40 "2014-04-09T22:38:40Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > You may prefer Urban Fantasy like the works of Charles DeLint. They take place in the modern world and the magic is largely shielded from the normals or muggles. > > Some narrowing down questions: > > Did you like Buffy? Do you consider this show Fantasy, Super Hero like or Horror? > > Do you like shows like Grimm? > > Once Upon a Time? > > The first Highlander movie or the Show? > > Do you like Hercules or Xena? > > Pushing Daisies or Dead Like Me? With one exception I have never seen any of those shows, in most cases because the previews were a turn-off, but also partly because I just don’t take on new TV shows too often. I’ve known enough people who are Buffy fanatics that one of these days (the same mythical day I tackle The Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad, etc.) I will sit down and watch at least the first season. The exception was Pushing Daisies, which could be a too whimsical by half, but was able to incorporate magical elements without setting off my instinctive “ugh - fantasy” alarm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-the-harry-potter-books-feel-like-fantasy-novels/685725.md?page=3)