# WHy don't US states that execute use carbon monoxide?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [January 19, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233 "2014-01-19T23:36:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/21 "2014-01-20T17:19:53Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> someone would need to be trained in how to administer the anesthetic without being an actual anesthetist, since doctors don’t participate in executions.
I thought that in the US anesthesists didn’t always have to be doctors, from some information mentioned in other threads about nurses. Are the nurses anesthesiology assistants?
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### Author:  [@dofe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dofe)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/22 "2014-01-20T17:22:09Z")
> [@Nava](#):
>
> I thought that in the US anesthesists didn’t always have to be doctors, from some information mentioned in other threads about nurses. Are the nurses anesthesiology assistants?
Anesthesiologists are M.D.s, and they are one of the highest paid specialists in the U.S.
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### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/23 "2014-01-20T17:45:25Z")
> [@Nava](#):
>
> I thought that in the US anesthesists didn’t always have to be doctors, from some information mentioned in other threads about nurses. Are the nurses anesthesiology assistants?
Nurse anesthetists also administer anesthesia, but they too are licensed medical professionals who are mandated to act in the patient’s best interest. So they would not be able to administer lethal doses to an unwilling patient. To do so would certainly undermine patient confidence in the profession, and cause licensure difficulties.
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### Author:  [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/24 "2014-01-20T18:16:19Z")
Pjen wrote: “The unspoken rule is that the person must be aware of what is happening and suffer enough to satisfy death penalty proponents, but not so much that it offends death penalty opponents.”
I think you’ve given the correct answer. There are many quick, easy and painless ways to execute a human being.
If we have to.
Jake
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### Author:  [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/25 "2014-01-20T19:11:16Z")
> [@Jake](#):
>
> Pjen wrote: “The unspoken rule is that the person must be aware of what is happening and suffer enough to satisfy death penalty proponents, but not so much that it offends death penalty opponents.”
> I think you’ve given the correct answer. There are many quick, easy and painless ways to execute a human being.
> If we have to.
> Jake
I don’t think anyone here, including OP, has said that legal execution of the death penalty, in practice now, is not painless.
[/nitpick]
> [@geezer1](#):
>
> …where players vie for a piece of the action, and the guest of honor is forgotten, or shoved aside until every fool has strutted and fretted his hour upon the stage, and gleaned as large a piece of the pie for himself as possible…
Metaphor alert. But, here,
> [@](#):
>
> …the right to put gentle into that good night …
poetic allusion and appropriateness: excellent.
Final grade on post: satisfactory. Excellent for brand-new SD poster. (Welcome!)
[/nitpick]
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### Author:  [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/26 "2014-01-20T23:11:48Z")
> [@Tinker\_Grey](#):
>
> Thanks everyone. Any reaction to KarlGauss’ response? I had forgotten about the question of anesthesia. Surely you could O.D. a convict before he/she could put up much of a fight.
In less ‘refined’ shall we say countries like Saudi Arabia where they still execute by decapitation via the sword the condemned are always heavily sedated beforehand. Don’t think it has much to do with sympathy for the victims, more just a practicality of the procedure. Better than some other Islamic states where they still do slow-drop, strangulation hanging in front of throngs of zealots!
> [@Nanoda](#):
>
> I also wonder why N[sup]2[/sup] and CO aren’t popular; there’s always enough people doing it accidentally to prove it’s painless, supply, delivery and cleanup are trivial…
> I’m not sure it’s a _quick_ process though. Maybe that has something to do with it?
I think CO (carbon monoxide) isn’t used because it isn’t fast enough because it’s not really toxic. It merely displaces the O[sub]2[/sub] in your bloodstream and your cells suffocate. But because there’s no build-up of CO[sub]2[/sub] (carbon dioxide) it doesn’t trigger a pain response.
> [@Jake](#):
>
> Pjen wrote: “The unspoken rule is that the person must be aware of what is happening and suffer enough to satisfy death penalty proponents, but not so much that it offends death penalty opponents.”
> I think you’ve given the correct answer. There are many quick, easy and painless ways to execute a human being.
> If we have to.
> Jake
If we’re only talking about physical pain I still maintain that you can never beat the guillotine. It’s horribly graphic & messy for the living, but I will always believe it’s absolutely painless…
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/27 "2014-01-20T23:50:36Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#):
>
> I think CO (carbon monoxide) isn’t used because it isn’t fast enough because it’s not really toxic. It merely displaces the O[sub]2[/sub] in your bloodstream and your cells suffocate.
Suffocation = asphyxiation = oxygen is not available for the lungs to give to the blood.
Suffocation is not what happens when you breathe small concentrations (a few thousand PPM) of CO; what happens is you are _poisoned,_ just as surely as if you had inhaled hydrogen cyanide.
CO is very toxic.
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### Author:  [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/28 "2014-01-21T01:25:40Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#):
>
> If we’re only talking about physical pain I still maintain that you can never beat the guillotine. It’s horribly graphic & messy for the living, but I will always believe it’s absolutely painless…
You take perhaps 15 seconds to die (loss of consciousness) after your head is cut off/throat is slashed. Dunno what your experience of pain would be.
Any of the oxygen deprivation methods would seem humane to me, based on the fact that oxygen deprivation is something many people have experienced, and they all report painless and unexpected loss of consciousness.
People/mammals go into convulsions when exposed to loss of pressure or oxygen-free evironments, and people watching find this distressing, which is why this painless\* method of euthanasia is not used as often now as it used to be for cats and dogs. As far as I know, this method had it’s origins in WWII medical research about high-altitude flying and altitude sickness.
\*(Except C02. I hope the earlier poster was mistaken)
I’ve often wondered why something like N2 is not used. It would seem to be the perfect combination of humane/looks horrible that would molify the humane and entertain the public. My guess is that it would just be more expensive.
By the way, my understanding is that execution by firing squad is not used now because they found that they couldn’t depend on a random selection of voters to actually shoot to kill. Or is that just myth?
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### Author:  [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/29 "2014-01-21T01:29:29Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> Suffocation = asphyxiation = oxygen is not available for the lungs to give to the blood.
>
> Suffocation is not what happens when you breathe small concentrations (a few thousand PPM) of CO; what happens is you are _poisoned,_ just as surely as if you had inhaled hydrogen cyanide.
>
> CO is very toxic.
CO just binds to hemoglobin stronger than oxygen. It is suffocation in a sense, just that oxygen can’t get into the blood even if it gets to the lungs.
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### Author:  [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/30 "2014-01-21T02:06:36Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#):
>
> Nurse anesthetists also administer anesthesia, but they too are licensed medical professionals who are mandated to act in the patient’s best interest. So they would not be able to administer lethal doses to an unwilling patient. To do so would certainly undermine patient confidence in the profession, and cause licensure difficulties.
I suppose one argument that could be used in support of medical professionals participating in executions notwithstanding the “patient’s best interest” consideration (or maybe _because_ of that interest), is to say that having a licensed medical professional’s involvement makes the ‘patient’ less likely to suffer.
In other words, if someone is going to be executed regardless, then having it done by an anesthetist or nurse anesthetist ensures that the patient ‘suffers’ no more than does any patient who receives a general anesthetic, i.e. not at all. I think that _is_ in the best interest of the patient (especially considering that the alternative, having it done without the involvement of medical professionals, makes suffering more likely).
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/31 "2014-01-21T03:15:09Z")
> [@buddy431](#):
>
> CO just binds to hemoglobin stronger than oxygen. It is suffocation in a sense, just that oxygen can’t get into the blood even if it gets to the lungs.
For a very liberal definition of [suffocate, fine.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suffocate?s=t) Ask any medical professional though, and they’ll tell you that [CO is toxic.](http://www.airgas.com/documents/pdf/001014.pdf)
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### Author:  [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/32 "2014-01-21T03:42:45Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#):
>
> I have done hundreds of research animal ‘sacrifices’ using a CO2 chamber.
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#):
>
> CO[sub]2[/sub] ??? What inhumane idiot suggested that?
My thoughts exactly. I can’t imagine being any part of this. Seems to me someone made a terrible mistake here.
> [@](#):
>
> There have been threads before on this, and generally N[sub]2[/sub] seems about as humane as you could get. A gradual increase in concentration over time might avoid the worst issues. Given this is GQ I will grit my teeth and refrain from further comment on executions.
> [@cmyk](#):
>
> N[sup]2[/sup] seems the most humane (and green!) if going gas chamber.
I’d like to hear what could be wrong about this. It just causes the person to pass out and never wake up. Does it really cause convulsions in some people? I’ve never seen that with N2O – admittedly that’s a bit different from nitrogen gas, but I’d think it would be more likely to have a variety of different responses, since it’s less inert.
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### Author:  [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/33 "2014-01-21T06:04:50Z")
> [@Melbourne](#):
>
> You take perhaps 15 seconds to die (loss of consciousness) after your head is cut off/throat is slashed. Dunno what your experience of pain would be.
Well, I don’t want to hijack this thread, but this has been a ghoulish fascination of mine for a long time. From everything I’ve read and my idea of anatomy:
No, when guillotined you don’t quite turn off like a switch, you essentially black out, albeit _ **very quickly** _. Some descriptions of experiments with guillotine victims have stated that when the heads landed flat on the severed neck part the heads showed signs of ‘awareness’ the longest. The key to consciousness is having blood moving through your brain, and this maintained a tiny amount of blood pressure in the brain for the most amount of time (though still only seconds). I don’t doubt that even your vision actually fades like blacking out, being that your eyes are connected directly to your brain (not via the spine).
But I don’t believe there is any way you could have any pain sensations. You’ve severed the main nerve ‘bus’ completely & essentially instantaneously at its root. Brain matter itself has no pain receptors and can’t feel any (this is why they often do brain surgery with the patients awake).
The psychological trauma just before, during, and right after all this is another matter. Though in my opinion, a rather moot one…
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### Author:  [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/34 "2014-01-21T07:21:29Z")
There was a rather disturbing thread on just this some years ago. You can go search. I’d rather not.
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### Author:  [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/35 "2014-01-21T07:35:49Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#):
>
> In less ‘refined’ shall we say countries like Saudi Arabia where they still execute by decapitation via the sword the condemned are always heavily sedated beforehand. Don’t think it has much to do with sympathy for the victims, more just a practicality of the procedure. Better than some other Islamic states where they still do slow-drop, strangulation hanging in front of throngs of zealots!
>
> I think CO (carbon monoxide) isn’t used because it isn’t fast enough because it’s not really toxic. It merely displaces the O[sub]2[/sub] in your bloodstream and your cells suffocate. But because there’s no build-up of CO[sub]2[/sub] (carbon dioxide) it doesn’t trigger a pain response.
>
> If we’re only talking about physical pain I still maintain that you can never beat the guillotine. It’s horribly graphic & messy for the living, but I will always believe it’s absolutely painless…
So is full drop hanging. Both result in the dislocation and separation of the spine and spinal nerves.
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### Author:  [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/36 "2014-01-21T07:47:10Z")
If my suggestion (that the infliction of immediate terror to the victim is an intended part of the process) then why not use considerable tranquilliser administration plus admin of anaesthetics prior to the procedure.
It might even be worth arguing in the USA that the denial of such sedation makes the process cruel in that the pain and terror could be avoided, but the state is using a method intended to cause distress. Similar to the adage that people are sent to prison AS punishment, not FOR punishment.
I repeat my personal opinion that people who engage in these matters are more morally reprehensible than the people chosen for judicial killing. The additional insistence on using a method that is more distressing and painful than necessary compounds the felony.
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/37 "2014-01-21T12:59:10Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#):
>
> No, when guillotined you don’t quite turn off like a switch, you essentially black out, albeit _ **very quickly** _.
> …
> But I don’t believe there is any way you could have any pain sensations. You’ve severed the main nerve ‘bus’ completely & essentially instantaneously at its root. Brain matter itself has no pain receptors and can’t feel any (this is why they often do brain surgery with the patients awake).
There’s much more to the head than just the brain. Example, anyone who has ever cut their scalp on anything knows that it _hurts._ For open-skull brain surgery, surgeons administer local anaesthetic to the area where they will be slicing through the scalp and skull.
A guillotine victim receives no such anaesthetic when his neck is severed - and that is a rather large cut. Pain receptors above the site of the cut are still connected to the brain and are still capable of communicating their pain signals - and AFAIK a slice through the neck produces as much pain as a comparably-sized cut anywhere else on the body.
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### Author:  [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/38 "2014-01-21T13:59:56Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#):
>
> I have done hundreds of research animal ‘sacrifices’ using a CO2 chamber. I am not even against the procedure and it is still fairly disturbing to watch - so much so that some researchers wouldn’t do it for their own experimental animals so other people like me had to do it for them. A CO2 chamber death is fairly quick (2 minutes or less) but you see them go berserk sometime after the first few seconds and then thrash around quite violently for a minute or more before they finally stop all movement. I don’t know that it is actually painful but the mammalian body has some instinctive countermeasures to being put to death and they are not pleasant to witness no matter how it is done.
> [@ZenBeam](#):
>
> I drove an ice cream truck, using dry ice to keep the ice cream cold. The openings to the freezer were on the top, so the CO2 would build up inside. On a particularly hot day, I breathed in the “air” in the freezer, and it hurt my lungs. I guess that’s not surprising, since CO2 will form an acid when it dissolves into water.
>
> Also, it’s the CO2 concentration in our blood that makes us want to breath. So I’m not surprised the animals thrashed about. In a pure nitrogen atmosphere, from what I’ve read, you don’t have the urge to breath more than normal, and it wouldn’t make your lungs acidic, so I’d expect that to be much less painful. I don’t think CO makes water acidic or triggers the breath reflex, so I wouldn’t expect that to be painful either.
CO2 is NOT carbon monoxide. Shagnasty, were they really using a CO2 chamber??? That sounds pretty damn horrifying actually.
Carbon Monoxide, on the other hand, just makes you go to sleep. I’ve never heard of any thrashing associated with it, which may well be why some suicides use it (go into the garage, close the door, run the car). Certainly my own probably exposure just made me tired.
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### Author:  [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/39 "2014-01-21T15:09:01Z")
It looks like it is CO2, not CO. See [Euthanasia Guidelines](http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/euthanasia.html) for example, but other cites all mentioned it as well.
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### Author:  [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-us-states-that-execute-use-carbon-monoxide/679233/40 "2014-01-21T15:18:00Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#):
>
> CO2 is NOT carbon monoxide. Shagnasty, were they really using a CO2 chamber??? That sounds pretty damn horrifying actually.
>
> Carbon Monoxide, on the other hand, just makes you go to sleep. I’ve never heard of any thrashing associated with it, which may well be why some suicides use it (go into the garage, close the door, run the car). Certainly my own probably exposure just made me tired.
We definitely used a carbon dioxide chamber. It a common method of euthanasia in the research sciences as mentioned above.
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