# Why don't you get the same Cultivars if you plant the Seeds? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 1, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537 "2010-06-01T18:43:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/41 "2010-06-02T19:54:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I think it’s more likely that the person who told you that was mistaken. Peach trees, like other stone fruits, have to be grown from graft to produce true, just like apples. [http://www.michiganpeach.org/facts/pit.html](http://www.michiganpeach.org/facts/pit.html) Not according to these sites: [http://www.ehow.com/how\_4438889\_grow-peach-tree-seed.html](http://www.ehow.com/how_4438889_grow-peach-tree-seed.html) [http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/2008-06-01/Grow-Free-Fruit-Trees.aspx](http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/2008-06-01/Grow-Free-Fruit-Trees.aspx) > [@](#): > > Most peach trees sold by nurseries are named cultivars budded or grafted onto a suitable rootstock. It is also possible to grow a tree from either a peach or nectarine seed, but the fruit quality of the resulting tree will be very unpredictable. > **[Peach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peach)** > > The peach (Prunus persica) is a deciduous tree that bears edible juicy fruits with various characteristics. Most are simply called peaches, while the glossy-skinned, non-fuzzy varieties are called nectarines. Though from the same species, they are regarded commercially as different fruits. > The tree is regarded as handsome and is planted in gardens for its springtime blooms in addition to fruit production. It is relatively short lived, usually not exceeding twenty years of age. Peaches were ... ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/42 "2010-06-02T20:11:00Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Not according to these sites: 😕 Your own quote says it right there. “Most peach trees sold by nurseries are named cultivars budded or grafted onto a suitable rootstock. It is also possible to grow a tree from either a peach or nectarine seed, but the fruit quality of the resulting tree will be very unpredictable.” The article from Mother Earth News does disagree, “But the almondlike seeds in pits from peaches, nectarines and apricots do a good job of carrying on the desirable traits of their parents,” but they’re the only ones I’ve seen say so. From the [Michigan Peach Council](http://www.michiganpeach.org/facts/pit.html): “If you take the pit from a peach and plant it, a peach tree may grow. It takes about three years for the tree to begin producing fruit. Remember, the fruit you get may look nothing like the peach the pit came from (you do not look exactly like your parents).” From [Robert Cox](http://www.coopext.colostate.edu/4dmg/VegFruit/Fruits/pits.htm), horticulturist at Colorado State University Cooperative Extension, “Peaches from seed can result in trees that bear decent fruit, although they may not look or taste just like the peach from which peach pit (28727 bytes) the pit came. Most commercial peach varieties are budded onto specific varieties of rootstock.” From[Lynette Morgan of Growing Edge](http://www.growingedge.com/community/archive/read.php3?c=gr&q=1096), “Once you have your peach seedling, its a good idea to graft it onto a good variety (a shoot with buds taken from a good cultivar of fruiting peach) since seedling-grown peaches don’t often produce very good quality fruit compared to the varieties of peach you can buy from nurseries (which are always a rootstock with a good fruiting type grafted on top)” Of course you can grow a peach tree from a pit. The question was whether the resulting tree would “get a tree of the same variety without having to graft it”. From all sites I can find other than the Mother Earth News one, the answer is no, it’s not likely. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/43 "2010-06-02T20:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Your own quote says it right there. “Most peach trees sold by nurseries are named cultivars budded or grafted onto a suitable rootstock. It is also possible to grow a tree from either a peach or nectarine seed, but the fruit quality of the resulting tree will be very unpredictable.” But, as I say above, that’s _far_ milder than the almost absolute pronouncement that you won’t get a usable apple by planting apple seeds that I find virtually everywhere. The end result seems to be that there’s a pretty good possibility of getting a desirable peach by planting a random peach pit. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/44 "2010-06-02T20:16:27Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > But, as I say above, that’s _far_ milder than the almost absolute pronouncement that you won’t get a usable apple by planting apple seeds that I find virtually everywhere. The end result seems to be that there’s a pretty good possibility of getting a desirable peach by planting a random peach pit. “Desireable”, perhaps. But it won’t be the same that the parent of the pit, which is what \*\*Gymnopithys \*\*was told. It might still be juicy and sweet and round, but it won’t have the same genetics as the parent tree without grafting. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/45 "2010-06-02T20:29:13Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Also, the apple does not equal the baby; it equals the placenta. the seed equals the baby. I don’t think you mean placenta, which is composed of fetal cells. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/46 "2010-06-02T22:32:44Z")
After reading the [Red Delicious](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Delicious) wiki entry, and the [apple breeding](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple#Apple_breeding) entry I see what’s going on. Wiki says it well: > [@](#): > > In the wild, apples grow quite readily from seeds. However, like most perennial fruits, apples are ordinarily propagated asexually by grafting. This is because seedling apples are an example of “extreme heterozygotes”, in that rather than inheriting DNA from their parents to create a new apple with those characteristics, they are instead different from their parents, sometimes radically.[22] Triploids have an additional reproductive barrier in that the 3 sets of chromosomes cannot be divided evenly during meiosis, yielding unequal segregation of the chromosomes (aneuploids). Even in the very unusual case when a triploid plant can produce a seed (apples are an example), it happens infrequently, and seedlings rarely survive.[23] Most new apple cultivars originate as seedlings, which either arise by chance or are bred by deliberately crossing cultivars with promising characteristics.[24] The words ‘seedling’, ‘pippin’, and ‘kernel’ in the name of an apple cultivar suggest that it originated as a seedling. Apples can also form bud sports (mutations on a single branch). Some bud sports turn out to be improved strains of the parent cultivar. Some differ sufficiently from the parent tree to be considered new cultivars.[25] > Breeders can produce more rigid apples through crossing.[26] For example, the Excelsior Experiment Station of the University of Minnesota has, since the 1930s, introduced a steady progression of important hardy apples that are widely grown, both commercially and by backyard orchardists, throughout Minnesota and Wisconsin. Its most important introductions have included ‘Haralson’ (which is the most widely cultivated apple in Minnesota), ‘Wealthy’, ‘Honeygold’, and ‘Honeycrisp’. So anyway, what we think of as Red Delicious today is one of over 50 cultivars from the original reddish yellow fruit named “Hawkeye” and later “Stark Delicious.” It’s a mutated clone of a mutated clone of a mutated clone, etc. Can you cross two Red Delicious cultivars and get a Red Delicious cultivar? Yes. Reliably? No, unless you’ve got the time and space. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/47 "2010-06-03T15:25:59Z")
If an apple tree springs forth from a Red Delicious seed, it will almost certainly produce fruit superior to its parent fruit. Red Delicious apples simply aren’t what their name suggests-- every other variety I’ve tried (around twenty I could list) taste better. Now back to the genetics- ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/48 "2010-06-03T15:49:18Z")
> [@](#): > > If an apple tree springs forth from a Red Delicious seed, it will almost certainly produce fruit superior to its parent fruit. From my reading of what has gone before, this almost certainly won’t be true. Apparently most genetic mixes of apples produce extremely substandard fruit. That was the point of my OP-- why was that? As for your comments on Red Delicious apples – _De Gustibus_ Non Disputandum Est\*, but they’re my favorite variety. \*Very Literally Meant, in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/49 "2010-06-03T17:13:41Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > If an apple tree springs forth from a Red Delicious seed, it will almost certainly produce fruit superior to its parent fruit. Red Delicious apples simply aren’t what their name suggests-- every other variety I’ve tried (around twenty I could list) taste better. > > Now back to the genetics- De gustibus non est disputandum. Red Delicious apples are my favourite kind of apples. ETA - Oops; I see someone else likes that phrase too. ---
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/50 "2010-06-03T20:28:25Z")
For an extremely interesting discussion of apple cultivation (also tulips, potatoes, and cannabis), grab a copy of Michael Pollan’s [The Botany of Desire](http://www.amazon.com/Botany-Desire-Plants-Eye-View-World/dp/0375760393) (also made into a [PBS documentary](http://www.pbs.org/thebotanyofdesire/)). He talks at length about the relative paucity of hand-edible apples, pointing out that what Johnny Appleseed was doing was providing a source of raw material for alcohol, not pie. When a tree was discovered that produced sweet fruit, it was fenced in and padlocked until a sufficient number of grafted clones were made to make the fruit commercially viable. Sweet apple varieties were, and are, extremely rare and valuable. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/51 "2010-06-03T20:58:53Z")
> [@](#): > > pointing out that what Johnny Appleseed was doing was providing a source of raw material for alcohol, not pie. I’ve read this, and am skeptical. Johnny Appleseed (John Chapman) was an incredibly odd and interesting character, who reportedly didn’t believe in pruning or grafting (although I haven’t read the primary sources). But he can’t have been unaware that it would’ve been easy for others who didn’t share his beliefs to use his planted orchards as rootstock for “traditional” eating apples. I understand that people used to come through communities selling and grafting buds all the time – it was a regular business. On top of which you could also make apple cider vinegar from those poor-quality apples, in addition to cider and applejack. I suspect those apples weren’t altogether bad for baking, too. I’m unconvinced that Appleseed was just selling the makings of alcohol. I’ve come across many references to Pollan’s book. I’m going to have to read it. ---
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/52 "2010-06-03T21:29:02Z")
It’s been some time since I read the book, but, IIRC, what Chapman did was to move a year or two ahead of the westward migration along the Ohio River, acquiring cheap land, planting apple trees, and selling the young trees to new settlers when they arrived. Much easier for them to buy local, established saplings than to bring them, and their heavy root balls, along. The settlers used the apples primarily for hard cider. (A quick look at his [Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Appleseed/) confirms the broad outline of this story.) He might have been a bit of an odd duck, but he left an estate of over 1200 acres of apple nurseries in Ohio and Indiana. It is a great book. Not so political about agriculture and food like his more recent works–just a lot of interesting history and ideas. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/53 "2010-06-03T21:36:24Z")
cider keeps longer than the fruit, hard cider more so, just preserving food value. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537/54 "2010-06-03T23:31:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Much easier for them to buy local, established saplings than to bring them, and their heavy root balls, along. My point is that they didn’t have to bring “heavy root balls” along. They could simply buy the existing orchards planted by Chapman and use them as rootstock for “eating apple” buds, which they could buy from the grafting salesmen (who didn’t have to carry “heavy root balls”, either – buds are pretty light). They grafted the buds onto the trees that grew (in more than a year – apple trees take about seven years to get big enough for fruit), and had perfectly good eating apples. And even though Chapman didn’t like grafying himself (it’s said), he probably wasn’t unaware that this was going on. i don;t think he could have been. But what people did with his orchards after he sold them wasn’t his business. So I don’t think he was just in the alcohol busines. And, yeah, apples might last longer and be good trade goods in alcogolic form. But sometimes you want to eat, too. It made more economic sense to take corn and feed it to ghogs and march _them_ to market. Or to turn it into corn liquor. But people still wanted to eat corn, as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-get-the-same-cultivars-if-you-plant-the-seeds/541537.md?page=2)