# Why don't you idiots calm down? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 27, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208 "2004-04-27T02:38:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/321 "2004-05-01T12:03:59Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > I liked their argument that the Sermon On The Mount was Jesus’ Big Moment, and instead of saying “Worship Me,” He chose to use that opportunity to say; “Follow my example, be humble and charitable and merciful and reach out to your fellow man.” It’s just logical that that would be His central message. If people couldn’t get closer to The Father by doing those things, why would he have bothered to deliver the Sermon that he did? You may be right, but I wonder if interpretating the phrase in this manner is more a result of modern sensibilites and not really the original intent. I’m no biblical scholar, so I have to wonder what conclusion folks who study the earliest versions of these texts feel it means. That probably means more than what you or I or some random folks on the web think. If I feel like it, I maybe I’ll start a new thread abut it in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/322 "2004-05-01T13:09:38Z")
I found other verses that seem to support my original interpretation of the verse in question. Since I’d rather have a reasonable debate on the subject, I made a GD thread: [How to interpret “…no one comes to the Father, but through me” (John 14:6)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4814245#post4814245) I invite those with an opinion on the matter to post their ideas there. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/323 "2004-05-01T15:25:42Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > You are a nitpicker. > One can get sent to hell for that, too. Do you even know what that word means? It means “be overly critical; criticize minor details”. It does not mean “rape kittens, the Teletubbies, or small furry woodland creatures”. I don’t recall my bible saying a damned thing about criticizing minor details being grounds for eternal torment (and no, the “mote in the eye” doesn’t apply here; read for _comprehension_). I guess that means pretty much any scientist or engineer goes to hell in “your book”. :rolleyes: When McDonalds has an unlimited supply of colourful and amusing placemats, why would a person not interested in the minutae and the minor details of life bother even reading a Board like “The Straight Dope”? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/324 "2004-05-01T21:23:31Z")
> [@Aries28](#): > > Okay…here we go. > I, personally, believe in the concept of salvation. I base this on my belief in the Bible where Jesus says he is the only way to the Father. \*\* I believe in order to attain salvation one must accept that Christ is the son of God \*\*, that he was crucified and rose again and that there is an afterlife spent in either heaven or hell. > > I don’t believe how you specifically worship is what keeps you from heaven. I believe there are Catholics \*\* and Jews that I will see in heaven \*\*. > . How do you reconcile the two bolded statements? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/325 "2004-05-01T21:40:56Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > . > > Look folks, I’m not agreeing with **vanilla** in any way, I’m an atheist. But it seems to me that people are making two groups of Christians, the good ones and the bad ones. The good ones conveniently don’t mention that pesky unfriendly non-PC line that Jesus said saying he’s the only way, or possibly pick and choose what words of their savior they decide to follow. > > The bad ones plainly state that they believe what Jesus taught, which I always thought was the definition of a Christian, and are attacked for it. > . I roughly agree, but the fact is that there’s so much contradiction in the bible and gospels, and so much room for interpretation when there’s no direct contradiction that actually both “sides” do the same picking of choosing. And believe in what they find appealing and discard the rest, or believe in what they’ve been taught to believe and discard the rest. Or a mix. However, on the overall, I too find fundamentalists more coherent. They aknowledge that the christian god isn’t just a god of love, for instance. He’s definitely also a god of wrath and judgement. I find also difficult to construct homosexuality as not being condemned by the bible, to give another example. But of course, their stance is a long shot from being totally coherent, either. Homosexuality is an issue, eating oysters isn’t. Paul is to be listened to when he says A but not when he says B. That said, I vastly prefer the less coherent stance of non-fundamentalists. I can’t help being extremely warry of people who find justifications for various awful crimes depicted in the bible or who have no issue worshipping a god who will have essentialy everybody apart them tortured forever. I’m not sure exactly what it tells about them, but most certainly something I really wouldn’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Tonya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/4491bb/32.png) [@Queen\_Tonya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Tonya)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/326 "2004-05-02T02:44:53Z")
It doesn’t appear a case of “good Christian v bad Christian” to me, in this thread or any of the others I’ve read. More a case of “those who bash people about the head and shoulders and spew hateful vitriol ostensibly based on the bible v those who try and share the good news of the gospel.” Being a jerk is being a jerk, regardless of source material. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/327 "2004-05-03T13:35:26Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I found other verses that seem to support my original interpretation of the verse in question. > > Since I’d rather have a reasonable debate on the subject, I made a GD thread: > > [How to interpret “…no one comes to the Father, but through me” (John 14:6)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4814245#post4814245) > > I invite those with an opinion on the matter to post their ideas there. Just a thought… What if it’s not the destination, but the trip? What if heaven is actually the act of treating people in a kind fashion and in turn being treated kindly? You know, being a good person for the sake of being a good person? Could it be that heaven is a state of mind that has nothing to do with superstition, hocus-pocus, an afterlife, or witchcraft? ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/328 "2004-05-04T14:59:40Z")
[/QOUTE] Compromise and the masses love you (youre compassionate), tell the truth and you are a ignorant bigot(unfair!) [/QUOTE] Actually the work I was thinking of was 'hypocrit". I’ve had my abortion. Too bad for you. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/329 "2004-05-04T15:18:06Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Just a thought… > > What if it’s not the destination, but the trip? What if heaven is actually the act of treating people in a kind fashion and in turn being treated kindly? You know, being a good person for the sake of being a good person? Could it be that heaven is a state of mind that has nothing to do with superstition, hocus-pocus, an afterlife, or witchcraft? IMHO, there is no heaven; you die and rot in the ground. But if there is a heaven, your ideas seems as logical as any, and more logical than most. I’m only in this thread to point out that **vanilla** was being bashed for simply believing a common (if not most common) interpretation of Christ’s words, which I found strange and unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Grant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a5b964/32.png) [@Grant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grant)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/330 "2004-05-04T15:47:46Z")
**Revtim** I understand that **vanilla’s** interpretation of the bible is fairly common and even sympathize with her for being bashed for her beliefs. ( I try to respect everyone’s beliefs even if I totally disagree with them.) I just think that most of the people bashing her were doing so for the way she handled herself and projecting her beliefs on other people. The whole I am right you are wrong if you disagree attitude just flies all over a lot of people. Rightfully so IMHO. As a chemist who has studied evolutionary biology and works in the geology field, I know that plenty of evidence is out there that contradicts a literal interpretation of the bible. **Vanilla** may never have been exposed to that material. Her fault? Maybe or maybe not. I can’t say. I don’t know her but it seems to me that her flat out refusal to accept any other interpretation never mind any other religion is what gets her in trouble here. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/331 "2004-05-04T17:27:45Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > IMHO, there is no heaven; you die and rot in the ground. > > But if there is a heaven, your ideas seems as logical as any, and more logical than most. > > I’m only in this thread to point out that **vanilla** was being bashed for simply believing a common (if not most common) interpretation of Christ’s words, which I found strange and unfair. Me either. I’m merely suggesting that people take christianity and the bible way too literally. Maybe we’re speaking in metaphors and imagery here and a whole bunch of people aren’t getting it. For me? Dead is dead. Done-ski. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/332 "2004-05-09T15:52:10Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > If the word “except” wasn’t in the Christ’s quote, I’d think maybe that interpretation was possible. Since He said “ **except** through me”, I can only interpret it as meaning only via worship of Christ can one get to heaven. > > Of course, we’re looking at a translation, so maybe the original text allows enough leeway to make your interpretation possible. Well, during my enforced break from the SDMB, this thread burgeoned, and 95% of what I would have wanted to say was said, and far more eloquently, by **Aries28** and **Siege** among others. But this one comment requires a bit more comment than what **Revtim** and **Kalhoun** gave it. Context, as has often been said, is everything. > [@](#): > > There is no God. This is, undeniably, a valid Scripture passage. It’s taken from Psalm 14:2b, and is something quoted to me by a skeptical friend a while ago. In context, of course, it’s what “the fool sayeth in his heart.” So what’s the context of “No one comes to the Father except by me”? And, please note, **Revtim** to the contrary, there is not one word about “worship” in that passage. Well, it’s part of the Maundy Thursday discourse in John. Jesus and the Twelve have just had dinner, with the sharing of the bread and the cup that led to the Eucharist, and Jesus is expecting to get arrested that night, or is at least aware that He’s put matters in motion that will lead to the climax of His ministry – we cannot be sure exactly how much He knew ahead of time, thanks to the _kenosis_ that left Him only partially aware of His fate. But here’s the context: > [@](#): > > When he [Judas] had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of man glorified, and in him God is glorified; if God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me; and as I said to the Jews so now I say to you, `Where I am going you cannot come.’ A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” > > Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” > > Jesus answered, “Where I am going you cannot follow me now; but you shall follow afterward.” > > Peter said to him, “Lord, why cannot I follow you now? I will lay down my life for you.” > > Jesus answered, "Will you lay down your life for me? Truly, truly, I say to you, the cock will not crow, till you have denied me three times. > > “Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way where I am going.” > > Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?” > > Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him.” In short, the whole thing is about Jesus having compassion on his followers, whom John (like the other Evangelists) depicts as something like dolts. He knows what’s down the pike for Him, and for them as well – and He is dealing with their misunderstandings of it. Peter is claiming that he will follow Jesus anywhere – and Jesus says, “Nope. Before dawn tomorrow you’ll deny me three times. But don’t sweat it – _I_ have got everything under control.” If Jesus is going away, as He’s said, Thomas wants to know the way He’s going. I hear this as Thomas thinking Jesus is talking metaphor again – “the Way” as some mystical, Zen concept that Jesus is trying to get across to His followers. And Jesus says, in essence, “Chill out, Thomas. It’s cool – the Father loves you, and so do I. You don’t have to learn some mystical Way – _I_ am the way to the Father. You know Me – so you know Him too. Follow Me – I **am** the Way that you need to know. I’m the truth you need to learn; I’m the life you need to live.” To convert this into an exclusivist “If you don’t believe in the Nicene Creed, you’re damned” or “Give your life to Jesus” bit of theology is completely contrary to the context – the statement is part and parcel of the idea that Jesus’s Atonement brings man and God together, out of **love** by God for man. He understands us and has compassion on us. He is the way – not some satori insight but the person whom He is. Through His work man and God are reconciled. Pull a verse out of context, and you can make it mean any damned thing you want it to mean – and the word “damned” is used advisably there. Jesus is trying to **comfort** Thomas with that statement. It’s **His** love that will make things all right – that will triumph over Caiphas and Herod and Pilate and death itself. Obviously, this whole thing requires a response from us. But that’s the point behind the Holy Spirit being sent – and Jesus gets into this later in the same discourse. The Holy Spirit is supposed to guide people into the response that God wants from them individually – not a “one size fits all” altar call but the life that He expects, individually, of **Polycarp** and **Siege** and **Aries28** **Gobear** and **Kalhoun** and **Revtim** and **Vanilla** and **you** who read this. And it is one founded in the love that He bears for each person individually, and not the holding of a particular theological tenet or a particular act of repentance or contrition or whatever. It is the living of the particular life that He calls each person to. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/333 "2004-05-09T16:37:28Z")
Welcome back **Polycarp**! Thank you for your interpretation. However, it probably would have been more appropriate to put in the GD thread I had made on the subject: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4814245](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4814245) (I mention this new thread in post #322 of this thread, but I see it would be very easy to miss) Would you mind terribly copying your reply there? This subject deserves a better thread that the ass-end of Pit rant. ---
**Author:** ![Otters\_We\_Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3da27b/32.png) [@Otters\_We\_Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otters_We_Love)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/334 "2004-05-09T18:26:10Z")
**Polycarp** so what you are saying is one doesn’t need to “get saved”, one just needs to live as Jesus did? If so, why did He die then? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/335 "2004-05-09T19:57:19Z")
That’s not quite it, either, **Otters**. See the GD thread – I’ve tried to answer related questions on what I meant there. (What we have here is a case of sliding 20 cents over a smooth surface – a paradigm shift.) ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/336 "2004-05-09T20:56:27Z")
That’s it! I’m going back to working on the pi shawl! 😃 For the 99% of Dopers who aren’t in on the joke, several months ago, I posted a to-do list: [ol][li]Clean apartment.[/li][li]Finish pi shawl.[/li][li]Kill **Polycarp!** [/ol][/li]I had put the pi shawl on a back burner so as not to hasten his impending doom, but me thinks it’s time to get it out of the work basket! 😃 CJ (For those of you who don’t know us, this is posted entirely in jest, and no actual death threat was intended.) ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/337 "2004-05-09T21:14:00Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > That’s not quite it, either, **Otters**. See the GD thread – I’ve tried to answer related questions on what I meant there. (What we have here is a case of sliding 20 cents over a smooth surface – a paradigm shift.) You know, I was going to welcome you back, until you made that pair of dimes crack. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/338 "2004-05-10T02:58:30Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > You know, I was going to welcome you back, until you made that pair of dimes crack. Just be glad he didn’t say that two doctors make a paradox. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208/339 "2004-05-10T03:08:46Z")
Crap! I was SO avoiding that other thread but now Poly’s back and I gotta read it. shitshitshitshitshit glad yer back [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-idiots-calm-down/242208.md?page=16)