# Why don't you support Bernie Sanders? (if you don't) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 17, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632 "2019-06-17T02:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/661 "2019-10-18T20:01:41Z")
I will say again: I categorically reject the premise that presidential nominees must be chosen based on who has the best ideology or set of policy proposals. Presidents are policymakers, but they are also spokesmodels, and there’s no sense pretending otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/662 "2019-10-24T01:30:53Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > What about all the people who have put forward substantive reasons why Bernie is not their preferred candidates - you know, the ones whose posts you’ve largely ignored. Who will we be voting for? > > I stand by my points set out in post #18, with the note that although he has apparently resolved the first point about not being a Democrat, there have been persuasive arguments to suggest that point #5 isn’t really valid and Sanders hasn’t actually been that effective in Congress…which is an even stronger argument against voting for Bernie. > > I can’t stop you from dismissing all criticism of Sanders’ shortcomings as “identity politics” and irrational opposition, but it will certainly affect how much credence is given to your own arguments. I don’t dismiss criticisms of bernie, I disagree with his position on decriminalizing hard drugs, I think they should be legalized. If someone brings up “hes an old white man” that kind of thing is just identity politics, racism, and ageism, and has no merit. Often centrists on these boards resort to such low brow attacks of Bernie because they know they cannot refute how much of an incredible legislator the guy is. No one on these boards has definitively proven that our current healthcare system is better than M4A. No one has proven why we should allow BPMs to negotiate drug prices with manufacturers while the government puts regulations on manufactures to increase cost of production allowing them to monopolize and inflate prices along with the insurance BPMs who are happy to so they can charge americans more. No one has shown why Bernies SS expansion bill would be bad in any capacity. What most of these guys in this thread have been doing is the same shit Republicans do to their beloved centrist candidates for years. It’s odd how opposed most of straightdope is to republicans yet they use the same tactics when they’re forced into a corner and cannot rely on facts or reasoning, instead their assert their own truths as facts and convince themselves running a centrist against trump will be any different from 2016 when a large portion of votes went to independents and some even to trump. ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/663 "2019-10-24T01:33:05Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I don’t know what this means. (underline added) Appealing to people with the argument Bernie is old white male so we need a slightly less old less white female. (btw im pretty sure u know what that means, you just want to be combative as most people in this thread and avoid the substance) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/664 "2019-10-24T03:20:16Z")
Ok, one thing that is pissing me off about Bernie. His UHC plan. He is calling it “Medicare for all” but it doesnt have anything to do with Medicare. It’s a pure socialized medicine plan. That’s fine, but others want a true Medicare for all plan, and he has deliberately poisoned the well. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/665 "2019-10-24T13:02:23Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I will say again: I categorically reject the premise that presidential nominees must be chosen based on who has the best ideology or set of policy proposals. Presidents are policymakers, but they are also spokesmodels, and there’s no sense pretending otherwise. I agree with this. And they are also executives. They have to get stuff done. They also end up being faced with moral decisions that affect the nation, but that may not have been on anyone’s radar duing the election. So I do care about their ideology, and what their moral instincts are. But I also care that they are good managers and charismatic. That’s why, if all else were equal, I’d vote for the governor over the senator. And I think Obama’s prior job as “community organizer” was an important credential. > [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > …If someone brings up “hes an old white man” that kind of thing is just identity politics, racism, and ageism, and has no merit. Often centrists on these boards resort to such low brow attacks of Bernie because they know they cannot refute how much of an incredible legislator the guy is… I don’t care that he’s white and male, but I do think he’s too old. It takes a huge amount of physical energy to be the president, and while he has that now, the odds are that he won’t be able to keep it up through his term. Of course, we have a vice president for a reason. And if I really liked him for other reasons, I would overlook his age. But I don’t. Speaking of which, please fight my ignorance. You say he is an incredible legislator. Can you tell me what he has accomplished as a legislator? Because I have the impression that he’s been an unusually ineffective legislator who has accomplished very little. Especially given how long he’s held his current job. > [@DrDeth](#): > > …He is calling it “Medicare for all” but it doesnt have anything to do with Medicare. It’s a pure socialized medicine plan… Serious question: What is the difference between medicare and socialized medicine, other than the age limits on medicare? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/666 "2019-10-24T16:39:52Z")
Medicare is a specific program, “socialized medicine” is just a very general descriptor. The thrust of the criticism is that the “Medicare for all” legislation bears little resemblance to current Medicare. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/667 "2019-10-24T16:55:51Z")
[Politifact](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2019/feb/19/explaining-medicare-all/): Medicare for All: What it is, what it isn’t ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/668 "2019-10-24T19:42:33Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > … > > Serious question: What is the difference between medicare and socialized medicine, other than the age limits on medicare? Medicare consists of 4 parts: A Hospital Insurance, which is “free”. B medical, like walk in visits to MD- a modest monthly charge, say $150. C Medicare advantage or supplemental- offered by most health plans, it covers what Parts A&B dont, with maybe a small co-pay. Costs vary D= drugs. Medicare operates just fine with private insurance. Part C \*is \*Private insurance. Or maybe you want cadillac care or no waiting time, - some people just buy private insurance. That’s Ok. A true Medicare for all plan would be covered easily by charging companies a tax about equal to what they pay now to cover their employees health plans. You’d have small premiums, but your company may well pay them too. Sanders plan has none of that. Everyone is totally covered, no premiums, and all private insurance companies are outlawed. It is **NOT,** \*in any way shape or form “Medicare”. - ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/669 "2019-10-24T23:40:52Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just misunderstood me rather than strawmanning me. I’m certainly not advocating the end of dealers or speculators. ( **And I can’t remember how long you’ve been in the thread, but I’m no fan of Bernie Sanders, to put it mildly**.) > > Having a transaction tax would not end speculation. But it would have to be speculation based on spotting a potential growth stock early and holding onto it until it paid a nice profit, not sniping pennies from tiny fluctuations hour to hour or minute to minute. JFTR, **Trom** joined the thread on October 11. Not sure if I’ve joined it before this post. I’ll go check. ETA: Nope, this is my first post. Normally I’d be reluctant to bother reading an entire thread by starting when it’s fourteen pages long, but I just found out that my state is going to be part of Super Tuesday, so I thought maybe I’d better bring myself up to speed. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/670 "2019-10-24T23:47:04Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Give me reasons why you would not support Sanders as president. His SS expansion bill seems pretty good to me, his M4A bill seems pretty good to me, and **I agree with pretty much every position he has. Such as criminals having the right to vote, and in prison**. Or such as people being automatically registered to vote when they turn 18. > > Now I understand if someone has issues with his specific healthcare proposal, maybe you think a system like Germany’s would work better in america, I don’t know you tell me. Any arguments about his viability as a democratic front runner I throw out the window. I wont entertain any notions of biden being a better front runner than sanders, we tried a center-right candidate in 2016 and she got obliterated. I want to know specifics about what you don’t support that bernie has proposed, and what other candidates propose that you believe is better. This isn’t about what you think is best for dem party, this is about what you thinks best for America. Specifics. > (I’m well aware most dopers are center-left, that’s why I want specifics not vague speculations about Americans feelings towards an old white male whos a self proclaimed democratic socialist) If they’re in prison for voting fraud, should they _STILL_ keep the franchise? IYHO. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/671 "2019-10-25T00:51:19Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > He’s been consistent on nearly every position he’s held since entering office. He’s virtually untouched by corporate money, pacs, hedge funds, etc… He’s proposed new ideas in our country, such as free college tuition, universal healthcare, so when you sit there are list of mundane reasons for why Sanders is not electable, please explain why nearly every democratic candidate is running on the positions he introduced in 2016? > > I’ll tell you why, and you already know why. Because the American people overwhelmingly support Bernie Sander’s proposals. Do you really want to get into how electable Sanders is? I’m not going to have this debate if you want to bring up “he lost to hillary” while **ignoring the fact every delegate appointed by the DNC voted for hillary, while every non appointed delegate voted Sanders.** I also wont have the debate if you’re going to fall back on he’s not a democrat, you’re god damn right he’s not a democrat he’s a leftist, a real leftist. Not this center right corporate bs the democratic party embodies. > > **I’m aware dopers are centrists, and I love it that Bernie Sanders triggers centrist who want to pretend like they’re leftists.** You’re no better than a republican if you think you can find the middle ground on every issue. **Sorry but in real life, there are sides.** You can either let those in power have their way, or you can practice dissidence. Obama spouted change, but he played the role that the democratic party plays. Center right bipartisanship pandering to republicans on nearly every issue. \*\*The democratic party if it wants to survive and not get eaten alive, needs to embrace the likes of Bernie Sanders, AOC, Ro Khanna, etc… \*\* > > Let me make one other thing clear, if it wasn’t for Bernie Sanders, **do you really believe corporate media would be even mentioning universal healthcare, free college tuition, or raising the minimum wage for the first time in a decade?** I don’t, and I don’t think any rational person would either. **Excuse me? WTF is a NON-appointed delegate? Do NON-appointed delegates include delegates awarded to Hillary on the basis that she won the primaries from the states represented by those delegates?** **Yes, I am proud to call myself a centrist. But I take issue with any assertion that I pretend to be a leftist (however much the radical reactionaries of the extreme Right insist that I actually am one).** **There are also unexcluded middles. And any position founded on the notion that there AREN’T, or that I don’t recognize when an issue ONLY has two sides (of which MINE is the objectively correct one :p) is hardly worth my time.** **Sorry, I acknowledge that you said you wouldn’t accept it as an answer, but if Sanders wants to be the face of the Democratic Party, he really ought to become a member. As for AOC, I like her and generally support what she wants to do. And as for Ro Khanna; WHO?** **Pretty sure they would, because AOC. Unless you think AOC wouldn’t have brought those up without Bernie’s _imprimatur_. Do you think that?** ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/672 "2019-10-25T00:56:18Z")
Why are you colorizing everything, **kaylasdad99**? And is it considered ok to colorize things in quotes that the original poster did not color? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/673 "2019-10-25T01:09:13Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Why are you colorizing everything, **kaylasdad99**? And is it considered ok to colorize things in quotes that the original poster did not color? I colored each paragraph with the same color of the OP’s comment that it was responding to. And I’m pretty sure it’s kosher. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/674 "2019-10-25T01:36:23Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I colored each paragraph with the same color of the OP’s comment that it was responding to. > > And I’m pretty sure it’s kosher. When I look at the OP’s comment you quoted, I see no colors at all. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/675 "2019-10-25T02:09:58Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > If they’re in prison for voting fraud, should they _STILL_ keep the franchise? > > IYHO. I am not who you asked, but yes, I think people in prison should keep the franchise, even people convicted of voting fraud. Why not? In a properly run state, there won’t be enough people in prison to make a significant impact. And in an improperly run state, I don’t want the state to easily ALSO disenfranchise people be stripping them of their voting rights. That being said, I feel much more strongly that felons who have served their time be able to vote. And a persuasive argument against prisoners voting is that they are more vulnerable to being pressured to vote in a way that pleases their jailors than any other group is vulnerable to such coercion. > [@kayT](#): > > Why are you colorizing everything, **kaylasdad99**? And is it considered ok to colorize things in quotes that the original poster did not color? He did it so you can see which part of the post she is answering with each part of his response. I thought it was very clever, and might copy it. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/676 "2019-10-25T02:12:02Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > **And as for Ro Khanna; WHO?** [Ro Khanna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ro_Khanna) is a representative for California’s 17th congressional district. He is also a national co-chair of Bernie Sanders’ 2020 Presidential campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/677 "2019-10-25T02:20:26Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Appealing to people with the argument Bernie is old white male so we need a slightly less old less white female. > > (btw im pretty sure u know what that means, you just want to be combative as most people in this thread and avoid the substance) I’m a fairly old white guy and I don’t see anything wrong with preferring someone other than an old white guy as our nominee. All things being otherwise equal. That’s not my main objection to Bernie. But I don’t see it as “Identity Politics” (which I view as a meaningless term in all situations) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/678 "2019-10-25T02:52:25Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > When I look at the OP’s comment you quoted, I see no colors at all. 😕 Really? Are you using Sultantheme? I mean, if my method doesn’t show up for certain posters, I guess I’ll have to break up the quotes I’m responding to. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/679 "2019-10-25T03:20:28Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > **Excuse me? WTF is a NON-appointed delegate? Do NON-appointed delegates include delegates awarded to Hillary on the basis that she won the primaries from the states represented by those delegates?** It’s pure bullshit. It’s false information designed to imply that the DNC literally cheated its members of out the democratic (small d) choice of nominee. It ignores that Clinton (D) got more votes than Sanders (I), won more states, won more delegates even before “superdelegates”, and that Sanders’ campaign repeatedly advocated for those same “superdelegates” to vote AGAINST the democratic (small d) choice of Clinton when it became the only way he could win. That alone is why I refuse to support Sanders against literally any Democratic party member, and why I contend he’s more of a parasite on the party than the “face” of it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/680 "2019-10-25T05:26:13Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > … I’m not going to have this debate if you want to bring up “he lost to hillary” while ignoring the fact every delegate appointed by the DNC voted for hillary, while every non appointed delegate voted Sanders. … \*As usual \*the super delegates mostly voted for the winning candidate- which was Hillary by a large margin. However, 45 of the superdelegates did express support for Bernie before the election was overwhelmingly decided at the polls - the VOTERs voting about 17Million for Clinton but only 13m for Sanders. And the super delegates made no difference what-so-ever. The vote was 2842 to 1865 with 571 supers for Hillary and 45 for bernie. \*\*She won without the support of the Superdelegates. \*\* And if every “non appointed delegate (had) voted Sanders” he would have won 4091 to 615. You post displays a profound ignorance of how superdelegates work and the actual results of the primary. This is anyone reason why many of us dont like Bernie- his supporters and their “we wuz robbed” ideas. He lost- fair and square. Sanders actually only did well in the highly UN-democratic caucus primaries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632.md?page=35)