# Why don't you support Bernie Sanders? (if you don't) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 17, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632 "2019-06-17T02:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/841 "2020-02-18T02:02:20Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > … I don’t recall bernies effect on the 2016 race as limited or parochial, or failing to gain independents. I thought he was gaining ground. Well, so far in 2020, he’s _lost_ votes he was getting in 2016: **BS in IOWA** : 2016 – 84,870 (=49.6% _of 171,109_\*) 2020 – 45,936 (=26.1% of 176,000) I. DEM TURNOUT: 2016 - 171,109\*\* 2020 – 176,000 (versus 238,000 in 2008) **BS in NEW HAMPSHIRE** : 2016 – 151,000 votes (60.4% of NH Dem primary voters) 2020 – 75,110 (25.8%) NH. DEM TURNOUT: 2016 – 254,780 2020 – 295,000 - [From Iowa to N.H.: Updates - The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/live/iowa-caucus-2016-election/) \*\* [What to know about the Iowa caucuses | Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/01/31/what-to-know-about-the-iowa-caucuses/) When Sanders supporters have been asked about this on-air, the only answer I’ve heard them make is some variation on ‘well, in 2020 there are more choices.’ But if their main argument is that Bernie Sanders is the candidate who generates enthusiasm, then shouldn’t at least as many people who were enthusiastic about him in 2016, be enthusiastic about him in 2020? If a main selling point for Sanders is that he will bring out people who’ve never before voted, then how is that good if he’s losing people who normally vote? (If you posit that his 2020 numbers are made up of new voters, then the fact that the 2020 numbers are much smaller than the 2016 numbers means that he’s lost ‘reliable voters’ who did vote for him in 2016 but declined to do so in 2020.) I just can’t see a way of spinning these facts as being supportive of the “Sanders is the vote-getter, Sanders is the one who will increase turnout” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/842 "2020-02-18T02:02:40Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > What’s the matter with those unions? Don’t they know they are voting against their own interests? They are far better at calculating what their goals are and what they want to achieve than you are; I mean; you don’t seem to know fuck all about them. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/843 "2020-02-18T02:19:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I see this argument a lot. Attacks on Bernie will be ruthless! He’ll be called a socialist! He’ll be called the radical left! He’ll be painted as out of touch with mainstream America! > > It’s like we’re listing all the ways he’ll be treated **exactly like every other potential nominee.** > > There’s exactly one person Democrats could nominate who wouldn’t face exactly those charges: Dems could nominate Donald Trump, and we wouldn’t hear cries of “radical left socialist baby-eating godless American hater.” But whoever else is nominated, they’re gonna say that. They only have the one script. > > So let’s not fuss too much over that script. Let’s think instead of how we’re gonna counter it. But those statements land right on the chin with Bernie. He IS a socialist. It would be like if the Republicans nominated the Grand Wizard of the KKK as their candidate under the theory that the left will call them racists anyways, so that won’t hurt a thing. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/844 "2020-02-18T02:20:55Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Well, so far in 2020, he’s _lost_ votes he was getting in 2016: > > **BS in IOWA** : > 2016 – 84,870 (=49.6% _of 171,109_\*) > 2020 – 45,936 (=26.1% of 176,000) > > I. DEM TURNOUT: > 2016 - 171,109\*\* > 2020 – 176,000 (versus 238,000 in 2008) > **BS in NEW HAMPSHIRE** : > 2016 – 151,000 votes (60.4% of NH Dem primary voters) > 2020 – 75,110 (25.8%) > > NH. DEM TURNOUT: > 2016 – 254,780 > 2020 – 295,000 > > - [From Iowa to N.H.: Updates - The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/live/iowa-caucus-2016-election/) > \*\* [What to know about the Iowa caucuses | Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/01/31/what-to-know-about-the-iowa-caucuses/) > > When Sanders supporters have been asked about this on-air, the only answer I’ve heard them make is some variation on ‘well, in 2020 there are more choices.’ > > But if their main argument is that Bernie Sanders is the candidate who generates enthusiasm, then shouldn’t at least as many people who were enthusiastic about him in 2016, be enthusiastic about him in 2020? > > If a main selling point for Sanders is that he will bring out people who’ve never before voted, then how is that good if he’s losing people who normally vote? (If you posit that his 2020 numbers are made up of new voters, then the fact that the 2020 numbers are much smaller than the 2016 numbers means that he’s lost ‘reliable voters’ who did vote for him in 2016 but declined to do so in 2020.) > > I just can’t see a way of spinning these facts as being supportive of the “Sanders is the vote-getter, Sanders is the one who will increase turnout” argument. It’s a big field in a sui generis historic moment. To me this just says “Axe to grind.” Try editing the emotion and interpretation words out of it and it ceases to exist. I don’t see him as a loser just because he didn’t hold those points. Trump is a loser too. He lost the popular vote. So what? It wasn’t a race to get it, nor is it a race to keep NH percentages. Do you think bernie can compete for the obama/ trump voters? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/845 "2020-02-18T02:25:21Z")
Well I could guarantee that the US will never elect a russian dictator loving pig in 2016. And I’d be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/846 "2020-02-18T02:59:26Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But those statements land right on the chin with Bernie. He IS a socialist. > > It would be like if the Republicans nominated the Grand Wizard of the KKK as their candidate under the theory that the left will call them racists anyways, so that won’t hurt a thing. I was about to say the same thing, except that it’d be like if Republicans nominated a serial sexual assaulter and an out-and-out racist under the theory that the left would call them a racist misogynist anyway, so it wouldn’t hurt a thing. UltraVires, may I introduce you to 2016? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/847 "2020-02-18T03:51:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I was about to say the same thing, except that it’d be like if Republicans nominated a serial sexual assaulter and an out-and-out racist under the theory that the left would call them a racist misogynist anyway, so it wouldn’t hurt a thing. > > UltraVires, may I introduce you to 2016? That cute, but it misperceives what voters think. Yes, those on the left see racism and sexual assault. Others see enforcing immigration laws and locker room talk. Bernie admits and is proud of what he is accused of. Republicans can survive accusations of racism because there is debate over the truth of them. The parallel would be a GOP nominee who freely admitted that he hates Mexicans and thinks that they are inferior…along with black and Jews. Then you would have confirmed the previously unverified and over the top allegations by having your candidate admit it. There is a huge difference between an inference and outright fact. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/848 "2020-02-18T05:56:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I see this argument a lot. Attacks on Bernie will be ruthless! He’ll be called a socialist! He’ll be called the radical left! He’ll be painted as out of touch with mainstream America! > > It’s like we’re listing all the ways he’ll be treated **exactly like every other potential nominee.** I’ve absolutely given up making firm predictions since 2016, but… I actually am VERY concerned about this issue. This sounds a lot more conspiratorial than I normally like to be but… I very strongly suspect that there’s some level of coordination among the Fox News etc cabal to all agree to GO EASY on Bernie, hoping that he becomes the nominee, at which point the sludgegates will open. Why do I think that? Because, frankly, I’m amazed how _little_ we have heard from the right so far about Bernie’s past. Trump has attacked (in his own grossly effective way) so many of his opponents, with his idiotic nicknames. Pochohantas, “little” Mike, etc. He was so desperate to attack Biden that he got himself impeached over it. But what’s his nickname for Bernie? Is there one? There’s no way that there isn’t a massive file full of factoids to present out of context… here’s a photo of Bernie with a hammer and sickle flag. Here’s a quote where it sure sounds like he’s saying that Venezuela and Cuba are better than the USA. Etc etc etc. I just can’t imagine that he’s not vastly more vulnerable to that sort of thing than any other major dem candidate, given the way he has spent his public life. Are my predictions correct? Would they prove decisive? Would America actually care? Beats the hell out of me. But I think Bernie has the potential to suffer FAR more from being the 24/7 target of the sludge machine than any other candidate. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/849 "2020-02-18T06:00:57Z")
Crazy Bernie. That’s Trump’s name for him. > [@MaxtheVool](#): > > Are my predictions correct? Would they prove decisive? Would America actually care? Beats the hell out of me. But I think Bernie has the potential to suffer FAR more from being the 24/7 target of the sludge machine than any other candidate. The sludge will just be the bacon bits on top of the salad. There is enough true stuff about Bernie to disable him. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/850 "2020-02-18T06:04:47Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I’ve absolutely given up making firm predictions since 2016, but… I actually am VERY concerned about this issue. This sounds a lot more conspiratorial than I normally like to be but… I very strongly suspect that there’s some level of coordination among the Fox News etc cabal to all agree to GO EASY on Bernie, hoping that he becomes the nominee, at which point the sludgegates will open. > > Why do I think that? Because, frankly, I’m amazed how _little_ we have heard from the right so far about Bernie’s past. Trump has attacked (in his own grossly effective way) so many of his opponents, with his idiotic nicknames. Pochohantas, “little” Mike, etc. He was so desperate to attack Biden that he got himself impeached over it. But what’s his nickname for Bernie? Is there one? > > There’s no way that there isn’t a massive file full of factoids to present out of context… here’s a photo of Bernie with a hammer and sickle flag. Here’s a quote where it sure sounds like he’s saying that Venezuela and Cuba are better than the USA. Etc etc etc. I just can’t imagine that he’s not vastly more vulnerable to that sort of thing than any other major dem candidate, given the way he has spent his public life. > Are my predictions correct? Would they prove decisive? Would America actually care? Beats the hell out of me. But I think Bernie has the potential to suffer FAR more from being the 24/7 target of the sludge machine than any other candidate. To a populist like Bernie, though, he may be immune to sludge just like Trump in 2016. At a certain point, a duck’s feathers get grease-saturated and water just rolls right off. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/851 "2020-02-18T07:20:03Z")
Good luck with that populist stuff. Bernie plays well with his base, but beyond that color me dubious. That said, I believe (hope) that there are enough voters out there in the anyone but trump camp ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/852 "2020-02-18T10:40:48Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > That cute, but it misperceives what voters think. Yes, those on the left see racism and sexual assault. Others see enforcing immigration laws and locker room talk. We already knew that lots of Americans either tolerate or even welcome racism and misogyny. > [@](#): > > Bernie admits and is proud of what he is accused of. This is false. Bernie rejects communism and has always done so. He’s a socialist, which is different than a communist. Lots of folks don’t see a difference, but they’re as different as the USSR’s system and Canada’s system are different. > [@](#): > > Republicans can survive accusations of racism because there is debate over the truth of them. No, they survive these accusations because lots of Americans tolerate or welcome racism. Just like the Democratic party for over a century, which targeted and capitalized on support from racist voters. Without the racists, the Republicans would be a small, regional party at best. Without the misogynists too, they probably couldn’t win in a single state. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/853 "2020-02-18T16:02:44Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > To a populist like Bernie, though, he may be immune to sludge just like Trump in 2016. At a certain point, a duck’s feathers get grease-saturated and water just rolls right off. I don’t fear that the significant-but-not-decisive group of hardcore Bernie fans will suddenly read a quote from him in the past, slap themselves on the forehead, and say “wait, THAT’S the kind of thing he says?” and abandon him. But the question is whether he can broaden is appeal to moderates, sane Republicans, people-who-voted-for-Trump-because-they-hate-the-system, etc, etc. Would some of those be initially attracted to him because they’d heard good buzz and seen a few soundbites they liked, but then be turned back off by the presumed mountain of sludge? ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/854 "2020-02-18T16:06:26Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > What is an actual cite, or evidence, that Bernie can’t win? Would you like an opinion from a political commentator with decent credentials? Here you go: > **[The Democrats’ Bernie Sanders problem will lead to the re-election of Donald...](https://www.cityam.com/the-democrats-bernie-sanders-problem-will-lead-to-the-re-election-of-donald-trump/)** > > The perpetual problem of the American left is that it wants to feel good, rather than do good. This tendency to suicidal virtue-signalling — damn the consequences — is glaringly apparent in the Democratic party’s full-blown Bernie Sanders problem,... Any opinion of the November election at this point is going to be based on nothing more than the author’s beliefs, and maybe a survey of what some other people believe based on the present circumstances. I can’t say that the columnist I’ve cited will be proved correct in 8 1/2 months. Feel free to counter with a column by someone with a different opinion. You won’t be able to honestly state as fact that their opinion will be proved correct in 8 1/2 months either. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/855 "2020-02-18T16:20:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I disagree. A vote is a vote. _Voting_ is an expression of democratic principals but a vote is not an expression of a person’s _democratic_ principals, just their principles. For instance, there’s nothing inherently _democratic_ about banking regulation, yet people could certainly vote on things about bank regulation. The voting is what’s democratic. Thanks. I agree with you. “Political” would have been a better adjective than “democratic” in describing the principles expressed by voting. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/856 "2020-02-18T17:24:45Z")
I don’t support Sanders because he’s 107 years old and had a recent heart attack. I much prefer Senator Warren. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/857 "2020-02-18T17:56:29Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Would you like an opinion from a political commentator with decent credentials? Here you go: > [The Democrats’ Bernie Sanders problem will lead to the re-election of Donald Trump - CityAM](https://www.cityam.com/the-democrats-bernie-sanders-problem-will-lead-to-the-re-election-of-donald-trump/) > > Any opinion of the November election at this point is going to be based on nothing more than the author’s beliefs, and maybe a survey of what some other people believe based on the present circumstances. I can’t say that the columnist I’ve cited will be proved correct in 8 1/2 months. Feel free to counter with a column by someone with a different opinion. You won’t be able to honestly state as fact that their opinion will be proved correct in 8 1/2 months either. Maybe a US opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/858 "2020-02-18T18:19:43Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Maybe a US opinion? The author of the column is from the US. > **[John Hulsman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hulsman)** > > John C. Hulsman (born 1967) is an American foreign policy expert. He was the Alfred von Oppenheim Scholar in Residence at the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin. > Hulsman writes for the Aspen Institute of Italy and is senior research fellow at the Hague Centre for Strategic Studies. He used to work for The Heritage Foundation, where he was a senior research fellow in international relations there. He is president and co-founder of John C. Hulsman Enterprises, an international relations... ---
**Author:** ![Socsback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Socsback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Socsback)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/859 "2020-02-18T22:57:14Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I’ve absolutely given up making firm predictions since 2016, but… I actually am VERY concerned about this issue. This sounds a lot more conspiratorial than I normally like to be but… I very strongly suspect that there’s some level of coordination among the Fox News etc cabal to all agree to GO EASY on Bernie, hoping that he becomes the nominee, at which point the sludgegates will open. > > Why do I think that? Because, frankly, I’m amazed how _little_ we have heard from the right so far about Bernie’s past. Trump has attacked (in his own grossly effective way) so many of his opponents, with his idiotic nicknames. Pochohantas, “little” Mike, etc. He was so desperate to attack Biden that he got himself impeached over it. But what’s his nickname for Bernie? Is there one? > > There’s no way that there isn’t a massive file full of factoids to present out of context… here’s a photo of Bernie with a hammer and sickle flag. Here’s a quote where it sure sounds like he’s saying that Venezuela and Cuba are better than the USA. Etc etc etc. I just can’t imagine that he’s not vastly more vulnerable to that sort of thing than any other major dem candidate, given the way he has spent his public life. Its’s simple. Trump isn’t attacking Bernie, because he wants Bernie to be the nominee, because he believes strongly that Bernie can’t win an election against him. I agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/860 "2020-02-18T23:04:49Z")
> [@Socsback](#): > > Its’s simple. Trump isn’t attacking Bernie, because he wants Bernie to be the nominee, because he believes strongly that Bernie can’t win an election against him. I agree with him. How does dt do in a one on one debate with bernie? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632.md?page=44)