# Why don't you support Bernie Sanders? (if you don't) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 17, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632 "2019-06-17T02:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1121 "2020-03-01T14:01:40Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > What do you want Biden to do if trump stalks him on the debate stage? Challenge him to a fist fight. What else? :rolleyes: I would expect him to debate Biden the way Biden has debated people like Sarah Palin and Rand Paul, with passion and heart. I think Biden’s empathy is a good contrast. Biden sucked early on in large part because his handlers thought he could just talk about electability and hide from the TV cameras. I think the real Biden is coming out now. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1122 "2020-03-01T16:01:22Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I think the real Biden is coming out now. Given his diminishing capability to speak clearly and articulately, I think the “real Biden” is going to be problematic. If America is leaning towards a moderate democratic candidate, and it appears that they are, Buttigieg is an ideal candidate to contrast against Trump. Far superior to any moderate in the current field. Sanders would be a great contrast too, but he has baggage that I fear would make moderate dems stay home and that difference will not be made up by any new voters he claims his revolutions is bringing to the voting booths. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1123 "2020-03-01T16:23:13Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > 1. As I already noted, the idea is not entirely crazy and has precedent in tax law. It only applies on the excess over $100,000 if more than that is vested in any single year for a high-salaried individual. I worked for companies that gave out stock options and I’ve never received anything even close to that. But I agree it’s one of those ideas that Bernie should probably drop, and concentrate on tax rates and loopholes that benefit corporations and the very wealthy. But you and I both know: he’s not going to drop it. He’s not going to drop it because to drop it would mean compromising on principle. It’s essentially losing virtue in his eyes, and more importantly, that’s how his wide-eyed supporters who see unicorns and rainbows view it as well. That pretty much guarantees he won’t get shit accomplished if he becomes president, and that might even guarantee that he won’t get elected. Worse, that might guarantee the loss of the House. I will repeat: his ideas, his ideology, and his “Let’s turn America into Norway” double down posture aren’t as popular as he thinks. He is intensely popular within one wing of one political party - everyone concedes that. But he needs people outside his party to win this election. I will support him in the general if he wins the nomination because he’s not Trump, but I hope I’m wrong about everything I’ve just written. > [@wolfpup](#): > > I was initially a strong Biden supporter but his lackluster performance has been disappointing. What does Biden stand for? Aside from bringing integrity and sanity back to the White House, I’d be hard-pressed to come up with specific policies without looking it up. Whereas everyone knows what Bernie stands for, and it seems to be resonating with voters. Despite my skepticism, I note that RCP has him about 4.7 points ahead of Trump. That’s not a very big margin, however, and the Trump-style attacks haven’t even started yet. Bernie has run a much better campaign than Biden has, no question about it. Biden’s handlers made a tactical mistake in trying to ignore his competition early in the race, which is probably why Biden has appeared to be lacking in enthusiasm. I think the real Biden came to life last night. It’s a shame it took this long. I hope it’s not too late, but it might be. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1124 "2020-03-01T16:26:12Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Given his diminishing capability to speak clearly and articulately, I think the “real Biden” is going to be problematic. > > If America is leaning towards a moderate democratic candidate, and it appears that they are, Buttigieg is an ideal candidate to contrast against Trump. Far superior to any moderate in the current field. Sanders would be a great contrast too, but he has baggage that I fear would make moderate dems stay home and that difference will not be made up by any new voters he claims his revolutions is bringing to the voting booths. Buttigieg can’t win - he needs to drop out of the race. We can’t make this country accept him. We might make this country accept Biden. That said, I hate to waste Bernie’s energy, and the Democratic party’s leadership really needs a good swift kick to the balls. Instead of complaining and fretting about Bernie’s rise, they need to figure out how to incorporate some of his platform into their own. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1125 "2020-03-01T17:07:51Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Oh no. _ **Please!** _ Bernie, whatever his faults and however bad his ideas, is a good-spirited man. _ **His most left-wing ideas will never pass Congress** , even if the majority of Ds are on-board._ Compare this with Donald Trump who is doing huge damage even without GOP complicity (encouraging Americans’ racism, revealing secrets to Putin); and is now the leader of a Party which is fully on-board for a program of Lies, Racism, and Stealing from the public treasury. > > Suppose you’re in the market for a pet. You want a fluffy Persian cat but such is not available. Your only two choices are a mangy dog, stupid but loyal; and a poisonous centipede with a taste for human flesh. Do you really pick the centipede? That’s a hell of a campaign slogan: Vote Bernie! He’s so crazy you know his proposals won’t pass Congress! ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1126 "2020-03-01T17:51:35Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Look on the bright side: Sanders won’t get any of that passed and he’d quickly become a lame-duck president. Of course, that’s a problem in its own right. But at least his policies wouldn’t sink your business. Great. So, I don’t want his domestic policies, but I should vote for him because they won’t get passed. I also think he has a terrible record on [foreign policy](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/01/just-how-radical-bernie-sanders-is-foreign-policy/). Take his Russian sanctions policy, or policy that there shouldn’t be sanctions: _“Sanders routinely voted against sanctions bills, and even opposed the Magnitsky Act — named after Sergei Magnitsky, a lawyer tortured and killed in a Russian prison — which is used to sanction individual human rights abuses. In 2017, the Senate passed new sanctions against Russia and Iran by a 98 to 2 vote. Sanders and Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) were the only two senators to vote against sanctions. (“The Senate’s Iranian sanctions legislation imposes new restrictions on Tehran’s ballistic missile program, also aiming to punish Iran for supporting terrorism and human rights violations.”)”_ If we are going to just give up and let the Russians win, I’d just as soon let the Republicans left holding that bag than some guy who only decided to become a Democrat recently to run for president as a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1127 "2020-03-01T18:11:32Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Great. So, I don’t want his domestic policies, but I should vote for him because they won’t get passed. I also think he has a terrible record on [foreign policy](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/01/just-how-radical-bernie-sanders-is-foreign-policy/). > > Take his Russian sanctions policy, or policy that there shouldn’t be sanctions: > > _“Sanders routinely voted against sanctions bills, and even opposed the Magnitsky Act — named after Sergei Magnitsky, a lawyer tortured and killed in a Russian prison — which is used to sanction individual human rights abuses. In 2017, the Senate passed new sanctions against Russia and Iran by a 98 to 2 vote. Sanders and Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) were the only two senators to vote against sanctions. (“The Senate’s Iranian sanctions legislation imposes new restrictions on Tehran’s ballistic missile program, also aiming to punish Iran for supporting terrorism and human rights violations.”)”_ > > If we are going to just give up and let the Russians win, I’d just as soon let the Republicans left holding that bag than some guy who only decided to become a Democrat recently to run for president as a Democrat. I’m in agreement that the US shouldn’t always assume moral high ground relative to Russia or other regimes and applying sanctions can backfire where negotiations might otherwise be appropriate. But the Magnitsky Act is a particularly important piece of legislation that supports efforts to fight corruption, the kind of corruption that empowers Russian kleptocrats and gets his opponents killed, which makes Sanders’ opposition to the bill problematic. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1128 "2020-03-01T18:32:15Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > > [@septimus](#): > > > > Oh no. Please! Bernie, whatever his faults and however bad his ideas, is a good-spirited man. His most left-wing ideas will never pass Congress, even if the majority of Ds are on-board. Compare this with Donald Trump who is doing huge damage even without GOP complicity (encouraging Americans’ racism, revealing secrets to Putin); and is now the leader of a Party which is fully on-board for a program of Lies, Racism, and Stealing from the public treasury. > > > > Suppose you’re in the market for a pet. You want a fluffy Persian cat but such is not available. Your only two choices are a mangy dog, stupid but loyal; and a poisonous centipede with a taste for human flesh. Do you really pick the centipede? > > That’s a hell of a campaign slogan: Vote Bernie! He’s so crazy you know his proposals won’t pass Congress! Methinks you’re voting for the centipede. What’s your slogan? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1129 "2020-03-01T22:48:23Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Bernie called it a “very strange honeymoon” in his book. Jane has referred to it as a “honeymoon” as well. When George Will said in 2015 that they honeymooned in the Soviet Union, PolitiFact rated the claim Mostly True: [PolitiFact | George Will describes Bernie Sanders' Soviet Union honeymoon](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/aug/12/george-will/george-will-reminds-readers-about-bernie-sanders-u/) They were using the terms ironically. Snopes has determined the claim be [“mostly false”](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bernie-sanders-honeymoon-russia/). George Will is a right-wing anti-Bernie crusader. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1130 "2020-03-01T23:31:19Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > But you and I both know: he’s not going to drop it. He’s not going to drop it because to drop it would mean compromising on principle. It’s essentially losing virtue in his eyes, and more importantly, that’s how his wide-eyed supporters who see unicorns and rainbows view it as well. That pretty much guarantees he won’t get shit accomplished if he becomes president, and that might even guarantee that he won’t get elected. Worse, that might guarantee the loss of the House. I will repeat: his ideas, his ideology, and his **“Let’s turn America into Norway”** double down posture aren’t as popular as he thinks. … Bernie is not only an _inflexible_ ideologue, he’s also a poorly-informed ideologue: > [@](#): > > Sanders’s vision of Scandinavian countries, as with much of his ideology, seems to be stuck in the 1960s and 1970s, a period when these countries were indeed pioneers in creating a social market economy. In Sweden, government spending as a percentage of gross domestic product doubled from 1960 to 1980, going from approximately 30 percent to 60 percent. But as Swedish commentator Johan Norberg points out, **this experiment in Sanders-style democratic socialism tanked the Swedish economy.** Between 1970 and 1995, he notes, Sweden did not create a single net new job in the private sector. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bernie-sanderss-scandinavian-fantasy/2020/02/27/ee894d6e-599f-11ea-9b35-def5a027d470\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bernie-sanderss-scandinavian-fantasy/2020/02/27/ee894d6e-599f-11ea-9b35-def5a027d470_story.html) Zakaria goes into some interesting detail on how the Scandinavian countries corrected _out of_ Bernie-fantasy ideas on running an economy, into ideas that actually made prosperity and progress possible. But the biggest blow-to-Bros are the facts about taxation: > [@](#): > > … A 2008 OECD report found that the top 10 percent in the United States pay 45 percent of all income taxes, while the top 10 percent in Denmark pay 26 percent and in Sweden 27 percent. Among wealthy countries, the average is 32 percent. **The basic point is worth underlining because the American left seems largely unaware of it,** and it has only become more true over the past decade: The United States has a significantly more progressive tax code than Europe, and **its top 10 percent pays a vastly greater share of the country’s taxes than their European counterparts.** … (same source) These facts might make for some interesting questions to Bernie at the next debate. I’m guessing that they would come as a complete surprise to him. But, then he doesn’t appear to be interested in interacting with reality—preferring ideology. (My emphasis in all quotes.) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1131 "2020-03-01T23:59:46Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Bernie is not only an _inflexible_ ideologue, he’s also a poorly-informed ideologue: Look at the expeditures relative to the GDP [in this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22164152&postcount=51). Still think Bernie is “uninformed”? And look at the consequences in terms of crime, gun violence, incarceration rates, recidivism rates, and general population health and life expectancy. Sure Sweden has adapted, and so has Canada, and so will many of Bernie’s policies. But he does absolutely stand for something, and has all his life: social justice and fairness of opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1132 "2020-03-02T00:09:50Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > They were using the terms ironically. Snopes has determined the claim be [“mostly false”](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bernie-sanders-honeymoon-russia/). George Will is a right-wing anti-Bernie crusader. Snopes is lately turning into a left wing advocacy board and too often picks out ways to meaninglessly distinguish things to make criticism of the left be mostly false while criticism of the right gets no such probing treatment. Anyways, this article is a good example. It takes the statement that Bernie honeymooned “at the height of the cold war” and lampoons it by noting that June of 1988 was not the height of the cold war. So what? That is nitpickery of the finest order. What the article glosses over, but that is discussed in the newspaper article is that Bernie chose sister cities in Nicaragua and the Soviet Union. He specifically sought out a Soviet city to be partnered with Burlington so “we can break down the barriers and stereotypes that exist between the Soviet Union and the United States.” He doesn’t say how evil the Soviets are. He doesn’t condemn them. He puts the Soviets and the United States in parity and that our disagreements simply needed broken down and that we, by visiting with them, could cast aside our stereotypes of them. For a guy that supposedly disdains communism, he sure is cozying up to them. And far from being a scheduling conflict, Bernie is the one who negotiated the date for the trip and also, likewise, chose the date of his marriage. It wasn’t like he worked for a corporation that sprung a business trip on him the day after he paid non-refundable deposits on a wedding hall. If the idea of going on a honeymoon in the Soviet Union seemed terrible to him, he could have chosen different dates. When you choose what day to get married and you choose travel right after that marriage, most people call that a honeymoon. The Bernie camp can hand waive all of this away but it goes right to the heart of the accusation that the guy is a communist. Burlington, VT was not going to end the cold war. It was simply a desire on Bernie’s part to be closer to a system that he at minimum wanted to look into further. Maybe he can wear a button that says “I am not a communist” but when he has taken active steps to become closer to communist regimes, he will have a hard time convincing people otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1133 "2020-03-02T00:21:39Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Look at the expeditures relative to the GDP [in this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22164152&postcount=51). > > Still think Bernie is “uninformed”? And look at the consequences in terms of crime, gun violence, incarceration rates, recidivism rates, and general population health and life expectancy. > > Sure Sweden has adapted, and so has Canada, and so will many of Bernie’s policies. But he does absolutely stand for something, and has all his life: social justice and fairness of opportunity. I’m not disputing the idea that US spending on various aspects of the economy could be improved, and that other nations (such as Canada) offer instructive examples that could be beneficial to Americans. I’m a progressive. I believe that stuff. I believe that the data fully supports the idea that such changes would be constructive. Nor am I disputing the idea that Bernie stands “for something,” or even what the something is. What I’m saying is that _he’s going about it the wrong way._ He’s going about it in an authoritarian, ignore-the-data way. And if he got the nomination and managed to get elected (which seems unlikely to me), I believe he’d be remarkably ineffective in achieving his own goals. His views are, too often, not well-informed by facts—as with his ‘Scandinavian countries’ talking point. He is often inflexible, adhering to ideology in defiance of reality (and one of his biggest blind spots is human motivation and response to incentives—he appears to believe that such things can be mandated by government fiat). As I’ve said many times, if Bernie is the Democratic nominee, I’ll vote for him. But I really hope he isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1134 "2020-03-02T00:49:27Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > But the biggest blow-to-Bros are the facts about taxation: > > > [@](#): > > > > … A 2008 OECD report found that the top 10 percent in the United States pay 45 percent of all income taxes, while the top 10 percent in Denmark pay 26 percent and in Sweden 27 percent. Among wealthy countries, the average is 32 percent. The basic point is worth underlining because the American left seems largely unaware of it, and it has only become more true over the past decade: The United States has a significantly more progressive tax code than Europe, and its top 10 percent pays a vastly greater share of the country’s taxes than their European counterparts. … > > (same source) All of that is meaningless without also knowing how much richer the top 10% are in the USA vs Denmark. Could be a fair criticism, could not, we need more context. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1135 "2020-03-02T00:51:16Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Bernie is not only an _inflexible_ ideologue, he’s also a poorly-informed ideologue: > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bernie-sanderss-scandinavian-fantasy/2020/02/27/ee894d6e-599f-11ea-9b35-def5a027d470\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bernie-sanderss-scandinavian-fantasy/2020/02/27/ee894d6e-599f-11ea-9b35-def5a027d470_story.html) Thanks for mentioning the Zakaria column. I found it very interesting. I’m not sure if Bernie himself goes around extolling the virtues of specific Scandinavian countries, but a lot of his supporters sure seem to. > [@](#): > > When looking across Northern Europe today, one finds many innovative market-friendly policies such as educational vouchers, health care deductibles and co-pays, and light regulatory burdens. None of these countries, for example, has a minimum wage… > > …in order to raise enough revenue, these taxes fall disproportionately on the poor, middle, and upper-middle class So, school vouchers and no minimum wage? Regressive taxation? I don’t see that as a big plank in the Sanders platform. And what about the billionaires Bernie hates so much? > [@](#): > > Sweden and Norway both have more billionaires per capita than than the United States–Sweden almost twice as many…inheritance taxes in Sweden and Norway are zero. It seems like Scandinavia is riddled with billionaires with no (or little) inheritance tax. I wonder if the Bernie-Bros know about this? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1136 "2020-03-02T02:15:24Z")
Sherrerd, great post (#1130)! You’re so spot on about Bernie’s preferring to interact with ideology than reality. Related is his insistence on how poorly everyone is doing other than those at the very top, which would have been more in sync with reality in say 2009 but today is way off (although in the wake of the coronavirus I suppose that may change soon). It’s so similar to Jeremy Corbyn in the UK. These old lefties grew up with one kind of vision for socialism, it went out of style decades ago, they never changed, and now it’s like some kind of “retro” thing the kids love–but it never evolved and adapted with the times. > [@wolfpup](#): > > They were using the terms ironically. Snopes has determined the claim be [“mostly false”](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bernie-sanders-honeymoon-russia/). George Will is a right-wing anti-Bernie crusader. I have been reading George Will since the 1980s, when he had a column in the back of every issue of Newsweek. I know exactly who he is. I also know that he is an anti-Trump crusader as well, and that PolitiFact is a more authoritative source than Snopes (which, as UltraVires pointed out, has–like the ACLU–evolved from being an honest broker to just another left wing advocacy org). Furthermore, my American Heritage 5th edition is very straightforward in its definition of the word “honeymoon”: “1. A holiday or trip taken by a newly married couple. 2. A newly harmonious period in a relationship.” That’s it. So what you’re counting on is that your average 55 year old married white swing voter in the Milwaukee suburbs is going to look at all this and say “Bernie and his wife took this trip immediately after their wedding, we’ve got video of shirtless Bernie drinking vodka and singing worker solidarity songs with his Communist hosts, they have called it their ‘honeymoon’ multiple times, PolitiFact says it indeed was a honeymoon, but since now that he’s running for president he says they were being ‘ironic’, all of the preceding will now be erased from my memory”? 😕 > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > All of that is meaningless without also knowing how much richer the top 10% are in the USA vs Denmark. Could be a fair criticism, could not, we need more context. I had a similar thought, but what you are implying here goes too far. I suspect it’s probably true that Denmark has less extreme inequality than we do in the US, and that this at least in part explains the disparity. But even if that’s so–even if it explains ALL the disparity–there’s still a social impact on having the tax burden distributed so differently between the countries. You have probably seen that email forward about a dinner check being divided up based on the diners’ incomes rather than just equally, or based on what they ate. I would never want government to be funded based on a “poll tax” (every American gets a tax bill for 1/328,000,000 of the government’s budget), and in fact I’d prefer a more progressive tax system. But we can’t pretend it doesn’t have any cost in terms of social dynamics for individuals at the top to be paying for the majority of the government vs. just a plurality. I wrote the above before reading that Scandinavia has more billionaires per capita than we do! Wow. Hard to understand the no minimum wage: is it just social/economic pressure, combined with a robust safety net, that props up wages, I guess? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1137 "2020-03-02T03:51:21Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Bernie is not only an _inflexible_ ideologue, he’s also a poorly-informed ideologue:… I am sure that trump appreciates the support you are giving him- unwittingly I am sure. But why bash bernie? Are you trying to convince people here to vote for trump?or who? Even if you are pushing for say- Warren or Biden- you’re not doing them any favors. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1138 "2020-03-02T04:05:59Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Buttigieg can’t win - he needs to drop out of the race… He must’ve heard you: [https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/01/buttigieg-dropping-out-of-presidential-race-118489](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/01/buttigieg-dropping-out-of-presidential-race-118489) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1139 "2020-03-02T04:25:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I am sure that trump appreciates the support you are giving him- unwittingly I am sure. > > But why bash bernie? Are you trying to convince people here to vote for trump?or who? > > Even if you are pushing for say- Warren or Biden- you’re not doing them any favors. I want to see Sanders win because I can’t wait for people to come crashing down from St. Bernie’s cocaine socialism high. American exceptionalism seems to have infected my fellow progressives in that they think that in a country of 330M people, the bulk of the tax burden for UHC, free college, etc.can be foisted on the billionaires and corporations. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632/1140 "2020-03-02T05:21:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I am sure that trump appreciates the support you are giving him- unwittingly I am sure. > > But why bash bernie? Are you trying to convince people here to vote for trump?or who? You do realize that Bernie has been bashing the other candidates and painting them as corrupt stooges of a military-industrial oligarchy far more strenuously and consistently than anyone bashes him? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-you-support-bernie-sanders-if-you-dont/835632.md?page=58)