# Why evolution by 'random chance' can't exist without the supernatural **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727 "2016-12-14T22:59:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/21 "2016-12-14T23:46:10Z")
Your basic premise is wrong. Random events do happen at the sub-atomic level. Particles are emitted with no cause or pattern and travel off in unpredictable directions. And this matters. Because these subatomic random events cause effects at larger levels. Mutation, for example, happens when those subatomic particles strike the molecules in DNA. Your genes are altered and the next thing you know your offspring are locked in battle with Magneto. Or they develop the ability to digest cellulose. It’s a crap shoot. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/22 "2016-12-14T23:46:58Z")
Is this the reverse psychology version of fighting ignorance? Present an apparently pro-deity argument that is so absurdly ridiculous that people find themselves compelled to become atheists? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/23 "2016-12-14T23:48:43Z")
> [@Calico\_Jack](#): > > On the other hand if the Big Bang and evolution did occur by “random chance”, this would of course require a supernatural entity with the ‘free will’ to make things happen spontaneously without any prior cause, contradicting the laws of physics. No, it wouldn’t. A collective of supernatural beings acting in a purely deterministic way would also be a solution to that particular puzzle. You could also posit a completely random process which happens upon a “locked” nonrandom or random-by-parts paradigm. At the most basic alternative, we can posit _two_ supernatural entities with “free will”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/24 "2016-12-14T23:49:32Z")
The basic problem here, Calico Jack, is you’re applying your logic to situations where you don’t know the basic facts. Familiarize yourself with the facts first. Then draw conclusions from them. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/25 "2016-12-14T23:53:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The basic problem here, Calico Jack, is you’re applying your logic to situations where you don’t know the basic facts. Also, where he doesn’t know basic logic. But at least he has good taste in [movie villains](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicFYknnQqk). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/26 "2016-12-15T00:00:13Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > (We shall assume that the hypothetical driver is not a reader of this thread.) Or, really, any of the OP’s OPs… ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/27 "2016-12-15T00:06:14Z")
> [@Calico\_Jack](#): > > If nothing but the physical universe exists, and therefore in essence the universe is one giant machine, then true “randomness” is nonexistent. See: Quantum physics ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/28 "2016-12-15T00:09:11Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Also, where he doesn’t know basic logic. But at least he has good taste in [movie villains](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicFYknnQqk). Never mind that second part. He is CALICO Jack, not CACTUS Jack. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/29 "2016-12-15T00:12:57Z")
> [@Calico\_Jack](#): > > 1. That evolution occurred randomly, but a supernatural entity gave humans and animals the free will to choose their mating partners randomly without any prior cause and effect, despite this being impossible under the laws of physics. Since if one believes that anything can just ‘randomly’ happen without any prior physical cause, this means they believe things can happen supernaturally, or by ‘magic’ if you will. Now, granted, I don’t know that you’re Christian, but I can offer similar examples for any particular spiritual entity you want to discuss. 1. Where did the supernatural entity come from? 2. Is it easier or harder for there to be just the universe, or both the universe and supernatural entities? 3. Why did He create a universe that is 99.999999% empty space, and come up with such a roundabout method as evolution for creating creatures, when he has the powers of creation and his goal is to generate humans and impose moral guidelines on them? 4. Why does the creator of everything and guider of evolution care so much about the presence or lack thereof, of foreskin? ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/30 "2016-12-15T00:24:18Z")
> [@Calico\_Jack](#): > > While playing poker is said to involve ‘luck’ for example, in reality the outcome is entirely pre-determined by the cards which are dealt. If you’re being serious about this, you may know even less about poker than you do about evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/31 "2016-12-15T00:42:14Z")
> [@Calico\_Jack](#): > > The notion of evolution by “random chance” actually refutes atheistic materialism, and I’ll easily explain why: Fundamental misconception here. Evolution does not occur by random chance, it occurs by natural selection, which by definition is not random. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/32 "2016-12-15T00:42:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The basic problem here, Calico Jack, is you’re applying your logic to situations where you don’t know the basic facts. > > Familiarize yourself with the facts first. Then draw conclusions from them. Not going to matter, he won’t stick around, they never do. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/33 "2016-12-15T01:06:26Z")
As a star undergoes fusion, converting hydrogen into heavier elements, is it really deterministic where those elements end up and what directions the gamma particles fly and such? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/34 "2016-12-15T01:43:04Z")
I don’t think stochastic processes are considered magic by scientists. To most people, nuclear decay probably isn’t convincing evidence of Jesus Christ turning water into wine. Moreover, I find this sort of argument fairly weak. Maybe there’s a fancy Latin term for it, but it’s the kind that says the universe lacks a characteristic and only God can provide that characteristic. It’s never explained why God can do what the universe supposedly can’t. For example, the common argument that the universe can’t be timeless and without cause, but God can be. Free will doesn’t seem a useful concept in religious debates, since both theists and atheists take mixed positions. Some religions focus on the importance of human’s free choice, others don’t and claim there’s predestination of the elect, or that God already knows the future. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/35 "2016-12-15T01:58:19Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Never mind that second part. He is CALICO Jack, not CACTUS Jack. Calico Jack Rackham was a pirate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/36 "2016-12-15T02:34:25Z")
Are you ready yet to reveal what religion you are referring to, **Calico Jack** (previously asked, and unanswered, in a previous thread)? If not, would you mind if we assume that you are referring to Satanism? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/37 "2016-12-15T02:45:55Z")
Even if (contrary to our understanding of quantum mechanics) true randomness didn’t exist, pseudorandomness is plenty “random enough” for purposes of evolution. You accept that it’s possible to roll dice, right? And even though how the dice land depends on the precise angle and momentum with which they’re thrown, and their initial orientation, and so on, and could in principle be calculated by a very good computer, for practical purposes, they’re random enough for Vegas to make tons of money. Well, mutations are random enough for evolution to work, too. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/38 "2016-12-15T03:09:50Z")
> [@Calico\_Jack](#): > > Since of course, under a pure physics model, the animal mate selection that led to the evolution of humans was not ‘random’, but was of course just a pre-determined outcome of the universe ‘machine’ going through its motions. Nor the weather, climate shifts, cataclysms such as the death of the dinosaurs. The syntax here is a little unclear, and I’m not really sure whether you’re saying that the weather etc are random or not. Also, are you under the impression that evolution primarily happens by particular animals choosing to couple with the ‘correct’ mate, and their offspring changing to be ever closer to humans? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/39 "2016-12-15T03:32:14Z")
> [@Calico\_Jack](#): > > But the point is, the mutation didn’t happen by pure randomness or ‘magic’, it happened due to prior physical cause and effects. . . . So does the shuffling of a deck of cards, but that is sufficiently random to support a multi-billion dollar gambling industry. There are a lot more DNA base pairs in a typical mammal than there are cards in a deck. The mutations don’t have to be six-sigma random. They just have to be widely distributed over all the possibilities – exactly like a shuffled deck of cards. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727/40 "2016-12-15T03:44:10Z")
> [@Junior\_Spaceman](#): > > The syntax here is a little unclear, and I’m not really sure whether you’re saying that the weather etc are random or not. Also, are you under the impression that evolution primarily happens by particular animals choosing to couple with the ‘correct’ mate, and their offspring changing to be ever closer to humans? I think he’s just making the first cause argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-evolution-by-random-chance-cant-exist-without-the-supernatural/774727.md?page=3)