# Why exactly did Germany implode during World War I but not during World War II? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739 "2015-12-17T23:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/21 "2015-12-18T23:27:01Z")
Why exactly did Germany implode during World War I but not during World War II? WW-II Germany utilized a different labor market. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/22 "2015-12-18T23:46:14Z")
> [@Futurist110](#): > > Germany descended into revolution near the end of World War I and overthrew its Kaiser and its centuries-old Hohenzollern Dynasty. Because it was mostly sane and was fucking tired of eating rutabagas for a hopeless cause that didn’t mean anything and _evidently_ at this point the military was up its own arse. Whereas in WW2 they were fucking tired of eating rutabagas for a hopeless cause that didn’t mean anything anymore and the military was not so much up its own arse as existing on an different planet altogether… but they also did not want to be shot in the face for saying so. So, still sane. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/23 "2015-12-19T00:00:55Z")
> [@Futurist110](#): > > Yes–as I said in my first post here, unlike Nazi Germany, Imperial Germany often treated its (political) opponents with kid gloves. Err, really ? The SPD (socialist-democrat party) was founded in 1875. In 1878 it was banned by Bismarck, its opinions forbidden from the press under threat of jailtime and its leaders sent into exile (and it _still_ managed to grow in power and win elections all the way to the War, which is the funny part). You want they should all have been summarily shot to not count as “kid gloves” ? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/24 "2015-12-19T00:14:20Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > The rise of Hitler was in part caused by Germany’s incomplete defeat in World War I - the famous ‘stab in the back’. Not according to Fischer - a German historian from the 60s who quite eloquently showed that Germany was very much to blame for WW1 as well, and that it had followed a continuous political and cultural trend for the pursuit of an hegemonic position acquired over the other nations of Europe by violent means, from ~1890 onwards. He didn’t out and out _say_ “we were nazis all along, guys”, but it’s very much implied. His thesis was criticized a lot back then (because it was really inconvenient, politically), but these days it’s seen as roughly true. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/25 "2015-12-19T00:20:28Z")
Gah, fucked up the edit. Replace “true” (which is meaningless) by “roughly accurate, by many historians”. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/26 "2015-12-19T00:41:33Z")
I would argue Germany was in a much worse state after WW2 than WW1. The difference is the allied occupation. If they had simply withdrawn and left the Germans to it (not something that was ever on the cards), the result would have been far more chaotic than the end of WW1, but as it was German went straight from imploding Nazi regime to being ruled by military occupiers. ---
**Author:** ![Futurist110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Futurist110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futurist110)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/27 "2015-12-19T00:44:39Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Err, really ? The SPD (socialist-democrat party) was founded in 1875. In 1878 it was banned by Bismarck, its opinions forbidden from the press under threat of jailtime and its leaders sent into exile (and it _still_ managed to grow in power and win elections all the way to the War, which is the funny part). > > You want they should all have been summarily shot to not count as “kid gloves” ? Weren’t the Social Democrats always allowed to participate in German elections under Kaiser Wilhelm II, though? ---
**Author:** ![Futurist110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Futurist110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futurist110)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/28 "2015-12-19T00:46:12Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not according to Fischer - a German historian from the 60s who quite eloquently showed that Germany was very much to blame for WW1 as well, and that it had followed a continuous political and cultural trend for the pursuit of an hegemonic position acquired over the other nations of Europe by violent means, from ~1890 onwards. He didn’t out and out _say_ “we were nazis all along, guys”, but it’s very much implied. > > His thesis was criticized a lot back then (because it was really inconvenient, politically), but these days it’s seen as roughly true. Honestly, I need to read Fischer’s entire book, but Fischer appears to be correct that Germany purposely caused World War I. Indeed, Germany wanted to fight Russia sooner rather than later and thus felt that if war was inevitable, then it better occur as soon as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/29 "2015-12-19T00:57:47Z")
> [@Futurist110](#): > > Weren’t the Social Democrats always allowed to participate in German elections under Kaiser Wilhelm II, though? Yes and no. They definitely weren’t from 78 onwards. But to simplify things, they still had support and candidates who campaigned as “independants” under the banner of “We’re totally really honestly not SPD, guys, pinky swear _wink, wink_” and over time the party had enough success that the Reich was kind of forced to soften the ban informally - and eventually to repeal it when Bismarck resigned in 1890. ---
**Author:** ![Futurist110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Futurist110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futurist110)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/30 "2015-12-19T01:24:28Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > No. Mexico never unconditionally surrendered to the United States, and the United States never occupied all of Mexico nor deposed the Mexican government. (The Mexicans themselves deposed Santa Anna.) The two countries agreed on a peace treaty. I meant fighting on until the bitter end, though. Indeed, Mexico only agreed to the U.S.'s peace terms after U.S. troops have already captured Mexico City, no? ---
**Author:** ![Futurist110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Futurist110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futurist110)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/31 "2015-12-19T01:25:29Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes and no. > They definitely weren’t from 78 onwards. But to simplify things, they still had support and candidates who campaigned as “independants” under the banner of “We’re totally really honestly not SPD, guys, pinky swear _wink, wink_” and over time the party had enough success that the Reich was kind of forced to soften the ban informally - and eventually to repeal it when Bismarck resigned in 1890. Kaiser Wilhelm II only came to power in 1888, though. Thus, events between 1878 and 1888 certainly **can’t** be associated with his reign. ---
**Author:** ![Futurist110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Futurist110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futurist110)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/32 "2015-12-19T01:27:31Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Two factors, both having to do with terror. > > 1. As already mentioned, the Germans were righty terrified of Russian vengeance. Some in the German military harbored the delusion that, if only they got rid of Hitler and his SS fanatics, they could ‘cut a deal’ with the Western Allies that would allow them to at least keep some of their eastern holdings - this was part of the thinking of the conspirators who attempted to assassinate Hitler. Once that plot failed, all Germans - even those who were indifferent to, or hated, Nazism and Hitler - had no choice but to fight to the last: the alternative was to face Russian vengeance for the horrors committed by the German army in the east. Yes, this certainly makes sense. Of course, I think that the odds that the West would have actually accepted such a separate peace had Stauffenberg and his buddies fully succeeded in their coup attempt would have been close to zero. > [@](#): > > 1. Internal terrorism by the Nazis. Up to the very end, the Nazi terror apparatus kept functioning - for example, hanging ‘deserters’ from lamp-posts even during the final battle in Berlin. In a society thoroughly penetrated by Nazi informers, and that had grown used to Nazi oppression and terror, a mass resistance movement was not possible - the only one that developed was not a mass movement, but the above-noted military attempt to assassinate Hitler, based on a reasonably small conspiracy among certain officers. Yes, this certainly makes sense as well. Indeed, the Nazis were certainly **extremely** thuggish in regards to this! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Futurist110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Futurist110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futurist110)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/33 "2015-12-19T01:28:36Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Gah, fucked up the edit. Replace “true” (which is meaningless) by “roughly accurate, by many historians”. For what it’s worth, the Wikipedia article about the July Crisis and some of the sources that it lists also appear to **strongly** implicate Germany (and Austria-Hungary as well) for causing World War I. ---
**Author:** ![Futurist110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Futurist110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futurist110)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/34 "2015-12-19T01:29:37Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I would argue Germany was in a much worse state after WW2 than WW1. The difference is the allied occupation. If they had simply withdrawn and left the Germans to it (not something that was ever on the cards), the result would have been far more chaotic than the end of WW1, but as it was German went straight from imploding Nazi regime to being ruled by military occupiers. Why exactly would it have been far more chaotic, though? ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/35 "2015-12-19T07:38:57Z")
> [@Futurist110](#): > > I meant fighting on until the bitter end, though. Indeed, Mexico only agreed to the U.S.'s peace terms after U.S. troops have already captured Mexico City, no? Right you are, they still had hope, they still had ideas of help from abroad, they still thought the rest of the adult population may gain supplies, or unbury them, and form a militia… They still had the idea that the USA would avoid trying to capture a large city… It wasn’t in their book of war… what ? The enemy is taking out capital city ? They are massively outnumbered, they can’t do that ! It just doesn’t apply to WW II, and that is YOUR question… Sure the Kaiser gave up in WW I, why would the Nazi’s fail to give up in WW II ? They were freaking crazy, they were crazy from the start to the end, they believed that commitment to the idea was a replacement for actual tangible strength. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/36 "2015-12-19T13:59:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes and no. > They definitely weren’t from 78 onwards. But to simplify things, they still had support and candidates who campaigned as “independants” under the banner of “We’re totally really honestly not SPD, guys, pinky swear _wink, wink_” and over time the party had enough success that the Reich was kind of forced to soften the ban informally - and eventually to repeal it when Bismarck resigned in 1890. I guess you could say, compared to the Nazis, the Imperial government treated the SPD with kid gloves. It’s sort of damning with faint praise, though. A good book to check out, though, on the question of just why Germany kept fighting in WWII is Ian Kershaw’s “The End” ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739/37 "2015-12-19T19:07:14Z")
> [@Futurist110](#): > > While all of this is certainly correct, it is also worth noting that **extreme** Soviet brutality certainly preceded the 1941 Axis invasion of the Soviet Union. After all, in the Great Purge(s) of the late 1930s, thousands or tens of thousands of loyal Soviet government officials were rewarded for their loyalty with a bullet to the back of their head. ☹ And Ernst Röhm and the SA had their loyalty to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party rewarded with the Night of the Long Knives in 1934, little more than a year after Hitler took power. All of that is neither here nor there though; the Germans weren’t afraid of Soviet reprisals because Stalin purged the Soviet officer corps in the 30s, they feared reprisals for the genocide and atrocities the Nazis had just carried out in the Soviet Union and the East. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-germany-implode-during-world-war-i-but-not-during-world-war-ii/740739.md?page=1)