# Why exactly did gun culture blossom in the US and, seemingly, not in most other Western countries? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090 "2019-07-14T23:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/101 "2019-07-17T17:40:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Pretty much. US gun-rights culture (which I think is a more accurate description of our unique phenomenon than “gun culture”) [originated in our practice of slavery](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/04/where-americas-gun-culture-comes-from.html) … Yeah, that’s recent propaganda, since America has had gun rights since 1787, and it was the Northern states that were pushing for a Bill or Rights. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/102 "2019-07-17T17:41:24Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > Sure, but my question is; when carrying, do you feel safer or do you feel superior? I used to have a CCW, and I felt safer, especially in certain areas, and after getting those death threats due to my duties. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/103 "2019-07-17T17:53:59Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > As others pointed out, your statements are not supported by historical fact. > But the main reason the Second Amendment wasn’t an issue for most of the country’s history was that for most of the country’s history personal firearms that enabled a relatively untrained person to single handedly take out a rifle company sized group of people didn’t exist. > > The first such weapon that comes to mind is the M1921 Thompson submachinegun (AKA the “Tommygun”). Its popularity with gangsters led to The National Firearms Act being passed in 1934 to restrict civilian access to automatic weapons. > > I don’t recall gun control really being a major issue in my lifetime until the Colombine shootings in the 90s. It has been the rise in mass shootings over the past decades, combined with the polarizing effects of 24 hour news channels that has made the issue of gun rights so contentious. Actually, his statements are backed by historical fact. Up until recently, a American could buy the same rifle that was issue to rifle companies- the Musket, the harpers rifle, the Springfield, the Garand. But gun control changed that, and for no good reason. Submachineguns are very ineffective, and certainly can’t take out a “rifle company” single handledly. :rolleyes: In fact no one issues a submachinegun as their main battle weapon, they are only issued for special purposes, like undercover raids, and such. The rise in Mass shootings is caused by media attention, not gun availability. Guns have always been available. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/104 "2019-07-17T17:55:15Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I don’t understand this part. Canada and the UK come from the same common law heritage as the U.S. and deadly force is (still presumably in those countries) authorized when a reasonable person would fear death or serious bodily injury. And you don’t have to retreat in your own home, do you? > > In the U.S., it is generally presumed, absent contrary circumstances, that a person in your home uninvited intends such a thing. Sure, it may be some kid that just intends on grabbing an item and leaving, but how do you know that beforehand? Maybe his intention is to put a knife into your gut or rape your wife or daughter. Can you read minds in Canada? > > Even if that is his intent, are you not allowed to confront the kid with non-deadly force? If you do that, maybe the kid escalates it. > > It just, with respect, seems like regular citizens must be at the mercy of those who would do you harm, or at minimum, must allow intrusions into your home and possibly place yourself in great danger all to stay in compliance with the law and to protect a criminal above all else. Such a thing baffles me. Who owns your home? You, or any criminal who barges in? As **Stanislaus** has noted, your conclusions here are completely wrong. And no, in fact, you do not have a “duty to retreat” in your own home under Canadian law. The operative principle is one of _ **proportional force** _, and the UK precedents mentioned in the previously-cited link are virtually the same in Canada: “_It is both good law and good sense that a man who is attacked may defend himself. It is both good law and good sense that he may do, but only do, what is reasonably necessary_” and “_A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large_”. See, in particular, the sections on “The Law and Evidential Sufficiency” and “Reasonable Force”. There’s a reason that the castle doctrine as implemented in many US states has been referred to as the “make my day” law, because in distinct contrast to the principle of proportional force, it encourages a reckless cowboy mentality. There is evidence that castle doctrine and “stand your ground” laws [escalate violence and homicides](https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/new-am-study-finds-castle-laws-escalate-violence/) without deterring crime. And that mentality is intricately linked to the gun culture and promoted by the NRA: Much of [the spread of “stand your ground” laws] was part of a deliberate lobbying effort, particularly by the National Rifle Association (NRA). At its core, the NRA supports the idea that people should be able to use deadly force to defend themselves from dangerous threats, with little government intervention getting in the way. Hence not just the legal ability to purchase and own a gun, but the legal ability to use it even when safely retreating may be possible. So the NRA and its conservative partners, like the right-wing American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), have lobbied state lawmakers to pass “stand your ground” laws. This was part of a deliberate nationwide plan: When Florida became the first state to pass a “stand your ground” law in 2005, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre called it the “first step of a multi-state strategy.” … The effect of this, advocates argue, is a safer society overall. The research, however, doesn’t support this. Instead, studies support the big argument against “stand your ground” laws: that they legally empower people to use force even when it’s not necessary, and that could lead to more unnecessary violence. A 2016 review of the research, published in _Epidemiologic Reviews_, found that most big studies looking at “stand your ground” and similar “castle doctrine” laws — which only remove the duty to retreat in your home — found that they actually correlated with increases in homicides. > **[What "stand your ground" laws actually do](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/12/13875124/stand-your-ground-castle-doctrine-law)** > > The laws have come up after controversial shootings. But they’re widely misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/105 "2019-07-17T17:57:17Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Well, now that’s some revisionist history right there. How so? Indian raids were fairly common. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/106 "2019-07-17T18:09:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How so? Indian raids were fairly common. The statement being responded to was that early colonists “faced serious threats from the local Indians”. I suppose they did, in the same way that a home invader might “face a serious threat” from the homeowner. Maybe the Indians were just exercising their own version of a “castle doctrine”. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/107 "2019-07-17T18:11:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How so? Indian raids were fairly common. The native Americans were doing fine until the “early colonists” came and started claiming their land. It’s not like the colonists were living here for centuries minding their own business when all of a sudden these Indians immigrated and started attacking them. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/108 "2019-07-17T18:16:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Israel and Switzerland have tons of guns, but do not see them as the symbol the US does. They do have gun cultures. what they don’t have is “my gun in your face” cultures. Guns are a symbol of freedom, but freedom as defined by a land-owning, white male patriarch. Emphasis on white, emphasis on land-owning. You cannot ignore the issue of race when talking about guns in America. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/109 "2019-07-17T18:24:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Israelis take nature very seriously. As with many things here, there’s a political element to it: it’s a way of saying, This is OUR land, our home soil, and we need to look after it; if we don’t, we’ll lose our right to live here. Love of country (the national-political entity) and love of country (the physical land) are closely intertwined concepts, and not just in Israel. That’s a lovely sentiment. I wish more of us shared it in our own countries. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/110 "2019-07-17T18:34:12Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > In Spain a person who enters without the owner opening the door for them is not necessarily uninvited: I live alone, but the President of the “Community of Homeowners”\* has the keys in case there is some sort of emergency. My mother has keys to the homes of half her neighbors; she’s not an officeholder in her Community, but she happens to be friends with those neighbors. Her own keys are held by: her three children, the cleaning lady, the President of the Community and the daughter of the neighbor directly below. Some of us are conscientious enough that if we’re entering a house we expect to be empty we’ll actually say “hi?” in case the owners happen to be in; some are not. > > I recall reading about cases of people in the US getting home late (to a place where in fact he was not only invited but living), trying to be silent (yeah like that works so well when you come from a party, you can’t hear an elephant dancing) and being shot by a relative who’d thought it was an intruder. In Spain that level of imprudence+ would be unthinkable on anybody who’s generally compos mentis; people hearing about such a thing would ask whether there were drugs involved or it was a case of mental illness. > > - I’m purposefully not calling it a HOA because it’s conceptually very different. For starters, ours normally refer only to people whose apartments share the same central entrance. > > - Assuming nobody got hit, “shooting at unidentified person-sized lump whose intent is not known” would be _imprudencia temeraria_, “reckless imprudence”. Do you think if the murder rate in Spain went up by 1,000% and stayed there for 30 years, people would start to have a different attitude about strangers in their house and the efficacy of using guns for self defense? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/111 "2019-07-17T18:36:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, that’s recent propaganda, since America has had gun rights since 1787, and it was the Northern states that were pushing for a Bill or Rights. Doesn’t follow: most Northern states in 1787 still permitted slavery, and even most of the few that had enacted anti-slavery laws implemented them gradually, so there were still legally owned slaves even though acquiring new slaves was forbidden. Also, many Northerners benefited from the slave trade even if they didn’t own slaves themselves. However, I’m happy to accept the emendation that early white American gun-rights culture was **also** due in large part to racist oppression of Native Americans as well as of black people. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/112 "2019-07-17T18:54:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Doesn’t follow: most Northern states in 1787 still permitted slavery, and even most of the few that had enacted anti-slavery laws implemented them gradually, so there were still legally owned slaves even though acquiring new slaves was forbidden. Also, many Northerners benefited from the slave trade even if they didn’t own slaves themselves. > > However, I’m happy to accept the emendation that early white American gun-rights culture was **also** due in large part to racist oppression of Native Americans as well as of black people. The Northern states were anti-slavery from the start. wiki:\* Five of the Northern self-declared states adopted policies to at least gradually abolish slavery: Pennsylvania in 1780, New Hampshire and Massachusetts in 1783, and Connecticut and Rhode Island in 1784. Vermont had abolished slavery in 1777,…By 1804 (including New York (1799) and New Jersey (1804)), all of the northern states had abolished slavery or set measures in place to gradually abolish it.[2][4]\* But you know, playing the "racist’ card every time someone doesnt like something gets that card all greasy and worn out. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/113 "2019-07-17T19:02:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, that’s recent propaganda, since America has had gun rights since 1787, and it was the Northern states that were pushing for a Bill or Rights. Gun rights and the current worship of guns are two very-different things. Many other countries have “gun rights”, but very few have a large amount of people who treat guns as measure and symbol of a person’s independence and worth. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/114 "2019-07-17T19:08:27Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Gun rights and the current worship of guns are two very-different things. Many other countries have “gun rights”, but very few have a large amount of people who treat guns as measure and symbol of a person’s independence and worth. That is pretty rare in America too, maybe 5% of the populations. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/115 "2019-07-17T19:12:39Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Do you think if the murder rate in Spain went up by 1,000% and stayed there for 30 years, people would start to have a different attitude about strangers in their house and the efficacy of using guns for self defense? You’re not very familiar with our history, are you? We didn’t collect statistics back then, but we’ve had periods (about, oh, 150 years between the War of Independence to that of '36) where when there wasn’t a civil war there was an uprising, and in between police brutality that makes current American cops look nice, polite and mild-mannered; we’ve had militias armed by bishops fighting those armed by the unions in the streets of our towns. More recently, my whole family from the youngest baby to the oldest spinster has been in the Death Lists. For years, my father refused the police escort he was offered, on account of “if I change how I live, they have won”. My regional government is likely to go to the second-most-voted party thanks to a different party, led by a murderer who’s never repented. Part of the reason we treat guns with respect is because we know bloody well what they do. Because we don’t want to go back to those bloody times. Because too many of us have seen our fathers, our neighbors, our friends, shot before our eyes. And history tells us that the solution to guns is not more guns. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/116 "2019-07-17T19:32:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Northern states were anti-slavery from the start. wiki:\* Five of the Northern self-declared states adopted policies to at least gradually abolish slavery: Pennsylvania in 1780, New Hampshire and Massachusetts in 1783, and Connecticut and Rhode Island in 1784. Vermont had abolished slavery in 1777,…By 1804 (including New York (1799) and New Jersey (1804)), all of the northern states had abolished slavery or set measures in place to gradually abolish it. Nothing you posted in any way contradicts what I said, including the fact that most of the Northern states had **not** abolished slavery by the time that gun rights were enshrined in the Constitution. > [@DrDeth](#): > > But you know, playing the "racist’ card every time someone doesnt like something :rolleyes: If you are trying to claim that early American society, even in the Northern states, was not fundamentally influenced by white racism, you are absolutely deluding yourself. It’s not “playing the ‘racist’ card” to honestly acknowledge the historical role of racism in America. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/117 "2019-07-17T19:51:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I wonder if anyone has seriously studied this particular situation? > > The “Indians” answer does not really cover it. Australians and Canadians had similar frontiers, (although both the indigenous and invading populations were quite a bit smaller). I would have though that under the “Indians” proposal, Brazil, Argentina, and Chile, (and maybe a couple others), would have had a similar situation. […] > > People might point to the Wild West, but local ordinances against guns were rather more restrictive in the Wild West than they are in 21st century U.S. and there were few, (if any), challenges to those ordinances that were based on the Second Amendment. > […] I think this [study](https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1489&context=wmlr)might interest you, although it is a bit long. I find it interesting viewing this debate from the other side of the Atlantic that you US-Americans compare yourselves naturally with Canada, Swizzerland, the UK, even with Brazil, Chile and Argentina, when the most evident comparison concerning gun culture would be for me with Mexico and the countries south of Mexico down to Colombia and Venezuela. And Mexico sure has a gun culture. It seems it is not doing them much good. In this regard, they are not an example for others and I think neither are you. Fortunately, this is not the general direction the world is moving. BTW: I wouldnot call it gun _culture_. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/118 "2019-07-17T19:56:59Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So in Canada, Spain, and the UK, if you have your hunting shotgun in your house and someone breaks in, do you just leave your shotgun alone and never think of picking it up and using it? See post 25: if you’re complying with the federal law, your shotgun will be locked up or have a trigger lock on it, and unloaded. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/119 "2019-07-17T20:02:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But the big one is **feeling safer.** This is a completely foreign concept to me. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090/120 "2019-07-17T22:02:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The rise in Mass shootings is caused by media attention, not gun availability. Guns don’t kill people, the media does? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-exactly-did-gun-culture-blossom-in-the-us-and-seemingly-not-in-most-other-western-countries/837090.md?page=7)