# Why Globalization and Democracy sucks **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 26, 2019, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238 "2019-02-26T13:27:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/21 "2019-02-26T18:05:43Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Is this a big part of the problem? How did you get to this position? Are other worldwide churches in a similar position? Googling suggests that there’s variation among denominations, and controversy about ownership. As a general rule, more moderate denominations have their buildings owned by the denomination or district. More evangelical ones have their buildings owned by the individual congregations. This is not by accident. What central ownership does is tend to blunt the crazies and it’s why it exists. Here’s an example. If Crazy Bob, the neo-nazi preacher begins ranting in a more moderate church, the denomination will say, “Crazy Bob, we’re not neo-Nazis. Cease and desist.” If he continues, they’ll remove his credentials and send him packing. If he refuses to leave, they can have him barred from the church building and the parsonage. The denomination owns the buildings, they can kick him out. If Bob wants to keep ranting, he has to find another place to do it. That tends to limit Bob’s ability to attract people. In a congregationally owned church, all Bob needs to do is convince the people that he’s preaching to that he’s awesome and run off those who don’t like him and Bob gets to maintain his platform. This is essentially the story of Westboro Baptist Church. That’s why we don’t have a Westboro United Methodist Church. If a pastor gets too crazy, he or she is shown the door. Sometimes they go out and rent a building and become ‘Crazy Bob’s Community Church,’ but frequently they stand chastened and decide that neo-Naziing isn’t for them. This is also why United Methodist Pastors rarely stay more than 7 or 8 years at a church. The conference tries to nip demagoguery in the bud and realizes that pastors are in a position where they can manipulate congregants, so they don’t like congregations to get too attached to a single man or woman. There are cons, because a charismatic pastor can really make a church a great experience and the next guy might be a dud, but you have to take the bad with the good. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/22 "2019-02-26T18:11:32Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > How dare these black and brown people actually have opinions and vote for them. They should let white people like you do their thinking for them like they did back in the good old days. I’m sure John Wesley is rolling over in his grave at the thought of his church not following the latest politically correct fad. I’ve never denied their right to vote, nor do I suggest in any way that they be barred from voting. I merely say that it sucks. Their cultural hangups are hurting a lot of people that don’t deserve to be hurt. We’ve been fielding calls all day from homosexual couples in our church that feel they have been abandoned. I’m not claiming that western culture is superior or that African congregants are ‘wrong’ or ‘bad.’ They have a right to their views, but I am saddened by them. I wish that they would change their minds because I believe that it will bring more pain than good to the world. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/23 "2019-02-26T18:15:15Z")
I’m taking a different lesson away from these events than you are. To conclude that globalism and democracy are bad because you view people elsewhere in the world as bigots is, in my mind, truly bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/24 "2019-02-26T18:21:04Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I’m taking a different lesson away from these events than you are. > > To conclude that globalism and democracy are bad because you view people elsewhere in the world as bigots is, in my mind, truly bizarre. I actually specifically said that I don’t view them as bigots. I view them as having a different cultural context that hurts people. I do want to clarify again, that I don’t feel that globalization is inherently good or bad, nor would I wish for an undemocratic governance of the denomination. I am only saying that in this case, it sucks. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/25 "2019-02-26T18:40:53Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > I’ve never denied their right to vote, nor do I suggest in any way that they be barred from voting. I merely say that it sucks. Their cultural hangups are hurting a lot of people that don’t deserve to be hurt. We’ve been fielding calls all day from homosexual couples in our church that feel they have been abandoned. I’m not claiming that western culture is superior or that African congregants are ‘wrong’ or ‘bad.’ They have a right to their views, but I am saddened by them. I wish that they would change their minds because I believe that it will bring more pain than good to the world. So in your mind there is a way to take you saying that they suck and “screw you Africa” in a non racist way? ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/26 "2019-02-26T19:04:10Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > So in your mind there is a way to take you saying that they suck and “screw you Africa” in a non racist way? Sure. It can be in a nationalist way. 🙂 Or it could just be the reaction of someone very tired and very sad and lashing out at who he thinks is hurting him. Of course, I love Africa and I love the many African peoples, I just wish that they would see eye to eye with me on this issue. I hate that our cultural differences cause these kinds of rifts. I hate that one of the delegates from Cote D’Ivoire stood up and said that we are arguing that the youth want to see homosexual acceptance and then corrected us that the youth of west Africa are more numerous and want no such thing thus reminding me that there is no long arc of history bending toward justice and we don’t know where the long arc of history bends. Overall, I’m not even mad at African delegates. I don’t wish them harm. I even want to listen to their concerns and understand them, I just also want them to change their minds and I realize that that’s not going to happen. A gay delegate was just speaking about not casting him out and not turning our back on him and I started crying at work and then you immediately hear from a delegate from Congo about how we can’t tolerate sinners and sinful behavior and I just want to hug the young guy that is getting turned away at the gates. It makes me sad and it tears me apart. But no, I don’t hate Africa and my words should be more measured. I also realize that it sounds like I’m painting with a broad brush. Africa is a large continent and attitudes in Egypt and Somalia and Liberia and Zambia and South Africa are all different. Not every person in Africa is anti-homosexual by a long shot. I was using Africa as shorthand for the African and African diaspora bloc that are largely the base of the ‘Traditional’ Movement and should not be applied to every individual on the continent. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/27 "2019-02-26T19:12:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Why Globalization and Democracy sucks Unrelated I guess, but isn’t this what Roger Stone says before he shoots his automatic and semi-automatic weapons at ranges with Alex Jones? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/28 "2019-02-26T20:16:13Z")
Have you tried writing down your list of grievances and nailing them to the door of the General Conference? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/29 "2019-02-26T20:24:26Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > …What it really boils down to is that people suck. We as human beings like to talk a big game about inclusiveness and love, but that’s not what people want. They want their tribes and they want their enemies. … I have long thought that was one of the primary reasons religion remained as popular as it is - sanctioned institutional prejudice and discrimination! 😃 We belonged to UU churches for some years. The national organization decided to move away from Humanism, and towards “Christianity lite” - in the hopes that that would fill more pews. Sloppy spiritualists have all manner of other options. We nontheists have none. But it got really old trying to fight an inexorable tide. Our only option was to leave. :mad: Denominations change over time. Presumably you chose this one because - at the time - it suited your needs/preferences/beliefs better than others. Sounds like you may need to make that comparative assessment again. Sucks, but good luck on your search. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/30 "2019-02-26T20:31:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Equal rights is a “politically correct fad” to you? > That is sad. Something has to give when theology from thousands of years in the past is contradicted by a subset of modern Western sensibilities. What exactly gives isn’t going to be universal in a body that spans the globe. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/31 "2019-02-26T20:33:53Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Have you tried writing down your list of grievances and nailing them to the door of the General Conference? Heh, there are plenty of lobbyists there already. I think the grievances are known. The debate has not been a particularly calm one by any stretch. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/32 "2019-02-26T22:00:26Z")
Final UMC vote is this afternoon or tonight, I think. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/33 "2019-02-26T22:24:28Z")
Clown Penis ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/34 "2019-02-26T22:32:21Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Do I become a single-issue person where basically gay marriage defines the whole of my identity? As a general rule, the church is a happy, lovey-dovey type of place. The leadership is left-leaning. The messages tend to be about social justice and inclusion. We give refugees sanctuary and march against wage inequality. But aren’t there churches that do those things _and_ treat gay people with respect? Finding an organization that does the things you like _and_ doesn’t do the thing you dislike isn’t being a single-issue person. There are a lot of churches out there. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/35 "2019-02-26T23:18:28Z")
Generally in these church quarrels what is being said and what is being heard are two entirely different things. The pro-gay faction says: “Can’t you let love prevail instead of sticking so rigidly to rules?” They want a church where people from various diverse backgrounds are accepted. The anti-gay faction hears something like this: “Can’t we just agree that 2+2 does NOT equal 4, in the name of love?” They think that truth is truth regardless of whether or if love comes into play. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/36 "2019-02-26T23:41:10Z")
I am not fully versed in African history, but isn’t it the case that the bigotry against homosexuals by the African Methodists (and other African Christian groups and African Catholics) is largely due to this bigotry being preached by evangelists from the US and various European countries back in the day rather than this being an ancient African tradition? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/37 "2019-02-26T23:54:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The anti-gay faction hears something like this: “Can’t we just agree that 2+2 does NOT equal 4, in the name of love?” They think that truth is truth regardless of whether or if love comes into play. So pretty much the exact same arguments they (conservative churches) made against interracial marriage, integration, and the abolition of slavery, then. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/38 "2019-02-27T00:29:24Z")
This isn’t an opinion based thing, but a doctrinal issue. This isn’t a matter of my opinion vs. your opinion, but a matter of right and wrong. So anyone framing this as a battle between two different opinions is getting this wrong. The correct doctrinal approach, according to Scripture is that, if something is disputable among the church, you do not cast judgement. That’s what Romans 14 is all about. Sure, the issue there is whether you follow Jewish dietary restrictions. But Paul lays out a general principle that we shall not cast judgment on disputable matters, but should also not do that which causes our brother to stumble. Those who have faith that it is allowed are to be fully convinced, and then do the right thing, while not stepping on the toes of those who think it is wrong. The actual situation here is that the Scriptures that have been traditionally determined as forbidding homosexuality may not actually do so. We have external evidence such as the existence of homosexuality and the inability to change it, and the fact that God doesn’t make mistakes, but we also have internal evidence, such as alternative interpretations of words and meanings of statements in context. Democracy is not always the best process. It doesn’t really work with “what people are allowed to believe” or even “what people should believe.” What should win the day here is the better scriptural argument. What should win is what God wants, not what man decides. There just isn’t any Scriptural basis for dictating to all what they have to believe on a controversial matter. What they are doing is sinful. The Bible is surprisingly libertarian in this aspect. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/39 "2019-02-27T02:11:20Z")
I live in St. Louis, so I’ve heard more about this than your average non-Methodist. I’m a liberal Christian and I’m with **BigT** on this. Lutherans, Presbyterians and Episcopalians have already gone through this fight. The UMC managed to push it back a few years longer, but here it is. One thing Catholics and Mormons understand is that democracy is a bad way to determine theology. Granted, they sometimes make odd pivots on positions, but they don’t say, “as a church, half of us say this, and the other half say that.” The very first thing the Methodists had to deal with was Wesley vs. Whitefield on salvation. In the U.S., Methodists split over slavery. There was a schism in 1946. The UMC is only 50 years old, and there’s a whole passel of other denominations that follow the Methodist tradition. I’m sure you can find one that aligns better with your views. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238/40 "2019-02-27T03:11:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Equal rights is a “politically correct fad” to you? > That is sad. That was an ironic comment by **puddleglum** , who is imagining that John Wesley would have seen it as a politically correct fad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-globalization-and-democracy-sucks/830238.md?page=3)