# Why has China always had so MANY people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 16, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260 "2018-05-16T04:19:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/21 "2018-05-16T12:53:47Z")
I think the answer may lie in geological aspects. The Indus River (root of the name India), the Ganges and the Yangtze river originate from the Himalayas/Tibetan Basin. Both the Himalayas and the Tibetan Basin are new mountain ranges (geological time wise) and have nutrient rich soil/rocks (because they are new and have not been washed/eroded). The rivers from these mountain ranges carry plant nutrients with them throughout the year. Historically the plains where these rivers deposit rich nutrients have been the bread baskets or rice baskets. The rivers in North America do not seem to have this benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/22 "2018-05-16T13:32:43Z")
The answer to this question generally comes down to two things: energy and water. The parts of east Asia that is China’s breadbasket has both of those things in abundance. This allows for increased yields which leads to higher population potential. > [@Lizard](#): > > Woulntd the Great Lakes region also have abundant water and plenty of nearby farmland? But it hasn’t supported hundreds of millions of people, even now. One of the real issues here is the simplest. Time. Humans have been in China for essentially [all of our existence](http://humanorigins.si.edu/research/asian-research-projects/earliest-humans-china). Even before modern humans evolved, there were hominids doing their thing on those floodplains. In North America, however, humans have only been around for [maybe 20,000 years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopling_of_the_Americas)? Even then, two things kept the population from meeting its old world cousins. First, a diaspora is a lot more hazardous to a population than settlements. The fact that humans were spreading increased the death factor. Second, only a small initial population came into the Americas to spread out and grow. While 20,000 years ago China may have been growing from 1,000,000 humans the Americas would have been growing from 5,000? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/23 "2018-05-16T14:04:59Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > And the difference is? The difference is that [\*\* the Chinese have a system of medicine that is at least 2,000 years old. \*\*](https://draxe.com/traditional-chinese-medicine/) > [@](#): > > According to the Cleveland Clinic, “Chinese herbal medicine is a major part of Traditional Chinese Medicine … it has been used for centuries in China, where herbs are considered fundamental therapy for many acute and chronic conditions.” (2) Chinese herbal therapy has its roots in a traditional medicinal text called “Materia Medica.” Thousands of different herbs, minerals, teas, tinctures and other extracts are listed in this text and utilized by trained herbalists depending on a patient’s specific symptoms. Compare this to [the European “system of medicine” in the Middle Ages](https://www.bl.uk/the-middle-ages/articles/medicine-diagnosis-and-treatment-in-the-middle-ages) > [@](#): > > Medieval astrologers believed that the movements of the stars influenced numerous things on earth, from the weather and the growth of crops to the personalities of new born babies and the inner workings of the human body. Doctors often carried around special almanacs (or calendars) containing illustrated star charts, allowing them to check the positions of the stars before making a diagnosis. Many of these almanacs included illustrations, helping to explain complicated ideas to patients. The picture below shows a ‘zodiac man’ from one of these almanacs from 1399. The diagram was intended to explain how the astrological formations (or star signs) rule over each part of the body. The man’s pointing finger serves as a warning against the powerful forces of the stars. > > Ancient studies of astrology were translated from Arabic to Latin in the 12th and 13th centuries and soon became part of everyday medical practice in Europe. By the end of the 1500s, physicians across Europe were required by law to calculate the position of the moon before carrying out complicated medical procedures, such as surgery or bleeding. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/24 "2018-05-16T14:28:23Z")
Ooo. That Dr Axe site looks pretty wonky. It throws around names like Medical University of South Carolina - where I’ve been treated - and University of Maryland but it is woefully short on actual citations. And, honestly, any health care thing that references Dr Oz has to go on the ‘silly and pointless’ pile. It’s not every healthcare practitioner that gets summoned before congress for his quackery and his potential negative health impacts. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/25 "2018-05-16T14:31:49Z")
Here’s rationalwiki on Dr. Axe. Note: not an MD. > **[Josh Axe](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Joshua_Lee_Axe)** > > Joshua Lee Axe practices quackery,\[1\] chiropractic and naturopathic medicine in Tennessee.\[2\] He has doctorates in chiropractic\[3\] and naturopathic medicine; he is not a medical doctor.\[2\] He is also a Certified Nutrition Specialist.\[4\] He promotes... He appears to lack knowledge of basic chemistry - railing against heavy metals (good, mostly) while selling a product that contains heavy metals (bad, mostly). In addition, he appears to lack any form of knowledge of physics, confusing ionizing and non-ionizing radiation. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/26 "2018-05-16T14:37:11Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Rice has always provided considerably higher yields and calories per acre than cereal grains. Nitpick: rice is a cereal. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/27 "2018-05-16T15:05:40Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The difference is that [\*\* the Chinese have a system of medicine that is at least 2,000 years old. \*\*](https://draxe.com/traditional-chinese-medicine/) > […] > Compare this to [the European “system of medicine” in the Middle Ages](https://www.bl.uk/the-middle-ages/articles/medicine-diagnosis-and-treatment-in-the-middle-ages) You can cherry pick examples easily enough. I mean, hey, that natural herbal medicine also includes thinking you can grind up tigers into dick pills. About as well founded as astrology. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/28 "2018-05-16T15:08:24Z")
> [@lingyi](#): > > Forgot what is probably the main reason. Since China was united over 2000 years ago by The Yellow Emperor (Qin Shi Huang Di) it’s been under central political rule with no major (i.e. country encompassing, which is geographically near impossible) wars that drastically reduced the population. China as a country has historically expanded, but rarely contracted. I think there might be something to this, but I don’t agree with all your details. The An Lushan Rebellion, the Three Kingdoms War and the Mongol conquests all happened in the last 2000 years, and all killed millions of people. BUT, even _before_ those happened, China had a huge, growing population. It might have been that the land lent itself to growth, as others have said; then China had a long time to grow, as others have said, and theses trends became self-reinforcing over time. China developed a sophisticated society that could support a large population earlier than anywhere else, and just kept on growing. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/29 "2018-05-16T16:13:46Z")
All these cultural explanations are nonsense. China has had a large population for thousands of years because China has had the most productive farmland in the world for thousands of years. India and China had larger and denser populations than Europe because Indian and Chinese farmland was more productive than European farmland. All the other cultural explanations proposed above are a consequence of higher population, not the cause. Note that this concerns China proper…the lands in and around the Yangtze and Yellow rivers, not Manchuria, Mongolia, Central Asia, or Tibet. Those lands are obviously less productive, ranging into outright uninhabitable. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/30 "2018-05-16T16:29:52Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > All these cultural explanations are nonsense. China has had a large population for thousands of years because China has had the most productive farmland in the world for thousands of years. India and China had larger and denser populations than Europe because Indian and Chinese farmland was more productive than European farmland. > > All the other cultural explanations proposed above are a consequence of higher population, not the cause. What I would have said. Also **Lizard** ’s point as well - China has suffered horrendous population losses on several occasions, it is just that a) it started from a very dense base and b) it was always able to rebound relatively quickly because its productive capacity is enormous. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/31 "2018-05-16T16:31:23Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > I am not sure that the answer is Rice. India is a neighbor to China and in different parts of India, different food grains are grown. Coastal regions grow rice but the northern / western states grow wheat / corn. China grows wheat too. 30% more wheat than India does. Same ballpark as China exceeds India in rice production. But they’re about even in population. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/32 "2018-05-16T16:41:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It also has nice cold winters. It’s hard to support hundreds of millions of people when you’re waiting for the ground to thaw. “ **Nice** cold” is easy to say from the comfort of Israel. 😉 But they do kill off most of the insects. > [@Alessan](#): > > I did not know that. Neither did I. Fascinating thread. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/33 "2018-05-16T16:51:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > China grows wheat too. 30% more wheat than India does. > > Same ballpark as China exceeds India in rice production. > > But they’re about even in population. I’m fairly certain that a larger percentage of India than China is conducive to dense settlement. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/34 "2018-05-16T16:57:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > China grows wheat too. 30% more wheat than India does. > > Same ballpark as China exceeds India in rice production. > > But they’re about even in population. I was talking historically - like 1000s or more years ago. As far as I know, wheat came later to China than rice. This site says something to that effect : > **[The arrival of wheat in China](http://archaeobotanist.blogspot.com/2010/07/arrival-of-wheat-in-china.html?m=1)** > > The extensive set of direct dates, on the largest early assemblage of wheat and barley in China, provides important new evidence on the arri... ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/35 "2018-05-16T17:14:01Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I’m fairly certain that a larger percentage of India than China is conducive to dense settlement. That’s because China as annexed lots of less-dense areas. “Core” China, though, is roughly the same size as “core” India\*, and has roughly the same population. \*Politics aside, by India here I think we should be referring to “historical” India, meaning India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/36 "2018-05-16T17:15:47Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The difference is that [\*\* the Chinese have a system of medicine that is at least 2,000 years old. \*\*](https://draxe.com/traditional-chinese-medicine/) That’s nice but there is zero evidence acupuncture is real medicine. Old superstition is still superstition. This has nothing to do with it at all. The reason there are so many people in China is food. It matters not what your medicine is like; if you can’t eat, you die. China is, geographically, exactly where you would expect the world’s population to be the greatest; it has been populated for time immemorial and had every possible advantage in terms of growing food. Excellent soil, lots of water, temperate weather, the right crops. China would be immensely populated if they got their medicinal advice from Bill and Ted. If we start getting into ludicrous arguments about culture and medicine I can point out any number of obvious counterexamples. Nigeria doesn’t have Eastern medicine, why is it so heavily populated? The medicine in Australia is excellent, so why is it so thinly populated? Why is western China, presumably with access to the same culture of medicine, thinly populated, as compared to “China proper”? The answer, in every case, comes down to access to food. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/37 "2018-05-16T17:25:33Z")
Well, I guess my thinking has been strongly influenced by the case of my hair dresser who, about 20 years ago, was diagnosed with cervical cancer. After getting that diagnosis and treatment options from two purely western doctors, she went to an Asian doctor who practiced holistic eastern medicine as well and our standard western medicine. His treatment cured her of her cervical cancer without surgery, chemotherapy, or radiation treatments, and it hasn’t returned in all of these intervening years. Maybe she just got lucky. There are cases of cancer going into remission for no apparent medical reason. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/38 "2018-05-16T17:42:22Z")
Dr. Kathryn Hall, Director of Placebo Genetics at Harvard Medical School’s Program in Placebo Studies, talked about how \*\*acupuncture \*\* helped her tennis elbow and how she has continued the treatment despite all the modern scientific evidence against it. This was on Adam ruins everything podcast. Per her, traditional scientific methods of screen treatments miss the individuality of each “subject” and although she specifically insisted on not using the term “wholistic”, she said there is strong evidence of mind/brain interaction as to how medicines or placebos work. Hear the podcast if you get some time. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/39 "2018-05-16T17:58:18Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Well, I guess my thinking has been strongly influenced by the case of my hair dresser I’m so stealing this ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/40 "2018-05-16T18:02:15Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Well, I guess my thinking has been strongly influenced by the case of my hair dresser who, about 20 years ago, was diagnosed with cervical cancer. After getting that diagnosis and treatment options from two purely western doctors, she went to an Asian doctor who practiced holistic eastern medicine as well and our standard western medicine. His treatment cured her of her cervical cancer without surgery, chemotherapy, or radiation treatments, and it hasn’t returned in all of these intervening years. > > Maybe she just got lucky. There are cases of cancer going into remission for no apparent medical reason. So, as you say, she received treatment from a holistic doctor. Also, her cancer went into remission. But you don’t know if those things are actually connected. Does that doctor have the cure to cervical cancer? Does every patient who sees him see consistent and reliable remission of their cancer? Does he do this purely with “natural” herbs and acupuncture, and no use of “Western” medicine? If not, then it seems kind of foolish to insist that “Eastern” medicine is more advanced and doubly so that your hairdresser’s cancer remission is evidence of that fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260.md?page=3)