# Why has China always had so MANY people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 16, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260 "2018-05-16T04:19:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/61 "2018-05-17T21:14:07Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The natives of the Great Lakes area practiced migratory slash-and-burn agriculture. So they’d burn down the area they wanted to turn into field, then plant - but exhaust the soil and have to move within a few years. (Plus, they also relied on some hunting). Maybe if they’d had another few millennia to perfect their technique they would have figured out how to stay in one place and replenish the soil - which would then lead to population expansion. But corn (maize) had only been available as a staple crop for about a millennia. They were still nomads. Yes, good points. I don’t think the Great Lakes region is as intrinsically agriculturally productive as the lower Mississippi or Yangtze rivers because of latitude and climate. That’s why the Mound Builders were where they were and not farther north. > [@am77494](#): > > No sure about China, but in India the Ganges picks up a lot of silt in its early life on the mountains (Himalayas). Once it makes it to the plains, it decelerates and deposits that silt. This combined with raging rivers during the monsoons, results in the river changing course (sometimes it moves a mile away from its original path). This effectively kills large trees. The Yellow and Yangtze rivers have a large amount of silt and change course frequently (or used to, river stabilization has been a goal of the people there for a long time). You’re right that trees directly impacted by moving water will be destroyed. But much of the arable area is rarely flooded and would (I assume) be heavily forested if not for regular maintenance by farmers. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/62 "2018-05-18T00:07:39Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > Rice does not, in fact, require flooded conditions to grow. Rice can grow quite happily in a dry field. The main reason most rice is grown in paddies is as a form of weed control. Rice can grow in flooded conditions and most weeds can’t. Rice yields are thus much higher in a paddy than a dry field. This is true. There is another substantial effect is with temperature. Rice is susceptible to cold and growth slows substantially in temperatures below 12C (60F). Rice grown in “permanent water”, say 12-15" deep is much better insulated against cold. One study indicated that deep water kept temperatures around the plant’s growth zones up to 7C higher than air temperatures. Consequently rice grown in deep water has yields 10-20% higher than grown in shallow water. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/63 "2018-05-18T00:54:44Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The difference is that [\*\* the Chinese have a system of medicine that is at least 2,000 years old. \*\*](https://draxe.com/traditional-chinese-medicine/) > > Compare this to [the European “system of medicine” in the Middle Ages](https://www.bl.uk/the-middle-ages/articles/medicine-diagnosis-and-treatment-in-the-middle-ages) The Europeans also have a system of medicine that is at least 2,000 years old. It is a continuously evolving system, but it’s not like we woke up one day and decided to throw out European medicine: your doctors learned it from older doctors who learned it from older doctors who learned it… It’s a continuous tradition going back thousands of years. Of course, the European tradition is effective, whereas Chinese medicine is not, but you can’t attribute that to it not being “traditional”. Perhaps you don’t appreciate just how conservative and traditional medicine is: even within the European medical tradition different countries (like America and France) have different cultural practices, and diagnose and treat differently. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/64 "2018-05-18T02:40:21Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Of course, the European tradition is effective, whereas Chinese medicine is not … That’s a very broad generalization and I’m not sure it is true. 1. I think Europe went through dark ages where a lot of medicinal practices / drugs / herbs were lost. The Greeks were pioneers in these traditional medicine which did not make it through the dark ages. China and India did not have this problem - thus the continuity in traditional medicine is far more entrenched. 2. As an Indian born educated in the English system, I was taught how traditional Indian spices were woo and how superior the European system was in regards to food and vitamin supplements. Now I see people paying 100s of dollars buying turmeric supplements and even cinnamon supplements - spices that were routine in Indian food. I suspect the same with Chinese ginseng / seaweed. Come to think of it Tea is a great hot beverage and we have to thank China for that. 3. Yoga from India and the different variations of meditation from China/Japan while certianly not medicine are surely related to healthy living. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/65 "2018-05-18T03:14:16Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > This is true. > There is another substantial effect is with temperature. Rice is susceptible to cold and growth slows substantially in temperatures below 12C (60F). Rice grown in “permanent water”, say 12-15" deep is much better insulated against cold. One study indicated that deep water kept temperatures around the plant’s growth zones up to 7C higher than air temperatures. Consequently rice grown in deep water has yields 10-20% higher than grown in shallow water. It works in the other direction, too. At high temperatures, RuBisCO is less efficient at fixing CO[sub]2[/sub] and starts fixing O[sub]2[/sub] instead which makes photosynthesis less efficient overall. Some species have additional metabolic pathways to compensate, but rice does not. Flooded paddies help to keep temperatures from rising too high. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/66 "2018-05-18T04:14:33Z")
For folks who are into it, here’s a berry dangling from my family tree: Culpeper’s Herbal. [The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Complete Herbal, by Nicholas Culpeper, M.D.](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/49513/49513-h/49513-h.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/67 "2018-05-18T05:14:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > What makes you think that Europeans were infested with lice and encrusted with shit, while Chinese and Indians were clean? Monty Python? > > Subsistence farming isn’t for people who are afraid to get their hands dirty, that’s for sure. But it isn’t any easier or cleaner in Hebei than it is in Tuscany or Flanders. Yes, but delivering a baby with feces on your hands versus cleaning your hands first can have a significant effect on the survival rate of a newborn. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/68 "2018-05-18T05:43:26Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I doubt polygyny was much of a factor; only the richest men indulged in it, and only the Emperor’s had large harems. And even if it \*had \*been widespread, how would that factor into population numbers in any way, unless there was a large disparity in the male/female ratio that would be solved by one guy providing for more than one or a few women ? Whether it’s 8 guys, 8 women\* or 1 guy 8 women, the end result is still 8 children. Hell, in the latter case it’s 8 children that probably shouldn’t get it on together, lowering fertility/health in the long run. > [@Melbourne](#): > > Perhaps you don’t appreciate just how conservative and traditional medicine is: even within the European medical tradition different countries (like America and France) have different cultural practices, and diagnose and treat differently. Hearsay anecdote, but apparently one thing the Chinese really were good about that has only relatively recently become part of Western medicine, was their reliance on preventative care over treatment. In the West, people call/called the doctor when they get sick and it’s the doctor’s job to fix them back up. In China doctors would visit people regularly and tell them to do this and that, eat this and that in order to _stay_ healthy and not get sick in the first place - that’s what they were paid for. They would also be called to fix sick people up, but in that case they were deemed to be fixing their own bad doctoring and thus weren’t paid for the service. This really has no impact on the effectiveness of 1000 year ginseng tea vs. leeches, bleeding and mercury-based potions ; but I do find the difference in philosophy and societal notion of the role of medicine interesting (if true - again, that’s just a tidbit I picked up god knows where). All the moreso that, in my country at least, over the past 10 or 20 years and in order to reduce UHC costs the state & medical boards have put a much higher priority on getting people to the doctor early and often because it’s much easier and cheaper to treat problems as they appear or even before that instead of treating serious diseases & injuries when they’re already in advanced stages. - … 1 cup. I’m not sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/69 "2018-05-18T06:51:42Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > Rice does not, in fact, require flooded conditions to grow. Rice can grow quite happily in a dry field. The main reason most rice is grown in paddies is as a form of weed control. Rice can grow in flooded conditions and most weeds can’t. Rice yields are thus much higher in a paddy than a dry field. I never knew this - and I spent my childhood in a neighborhood surrounded by rice paddies :o I’ve also wondered, why aren’t rice paddies absolutely teeming with mosquito larvae? Being large pools of stagnant water, they ought to be a laying mosquito’s dream come true. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/70 "2018-05-18T07:15:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I never knew this - and I spent my childhood in a neighborhood surrounded by rice paddies :o > I’ve also wondered, why aren’t rice paddies absolutely teeming with mosquito larvae? Being large pools of stagnant water, they ought to be a laying mosquito’s dream come true. Traditionally, farmers put fish in the water. The fish eat mosquito larvae, as well as snails and algae. Then the farmers can eat the fish. Also note that paddies are generally not permanently flooded. The fields are drained for harvest as well as for transplanting. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/71 "2018-05-18T07:31:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’ve also wondered, why aren’t rice paddies absolutely teeming with mosquito larvae? Being large pools of stagnant water, they ought to be a laying mosquito’s dream come true. Some doubtless are. But a combination of rice/fish culture helps. [Azolla](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azolla#Larvicide)cover is also supposedly effective. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/72 "2018-05-18T14:15:05Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > 1. As an Indian born educated in the English system, I was taught how traditional Indian spices were woo and how superior the European system was in regards to food and vitamin supplements. Now I see people paying 100s of dollars buying turmeric supplements and even cinnamon supplements - spices that were routine in Indian food. I suspect the same with Chinese ginseng / seaweed. Come to think of it Tea is a great hot beverage and we have to thank China for that. People also pay 100s of dollars buying homeopathic remedies, tiger bones, auyurvedic remedies and to get stung by bees. Some remedies from ancient Europe, ancient China and ancient India have been shown to have some effects, some have been shown not to, and there is nothing indicating that the ancient evaluation was any better in any of those areas. That you can use leeches to improve blood flow to reattached fingers doesn’t mean medieval European doctors were on to something with blood letting. And that people are now embracing some herbs and spices from ayurvedic medicine, even if that eventually leads to some solid scientific evidence (there’s still only maybes), doesn’t mean the whole system was justified. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/73 "2018-05-18T15:09:05Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > I am not sure that the answer is Rice. India is a neighbor to China and in different parts of India, different food grains are grown. Coastal regions grow rice but the northern / western states grow wheat / corn. > > Historically, population densities in India and China have been comparable. Also within India, there was no big population difference between parts producing rice and parts producing wheat. Rice is grown throughout northern India as well, wherever irrigation permits it. It’s more that you can’t grow wheat in the south than that you can’t grow rice in the north. > **[Top 10 Rice Producing States of India - Map of India](https://www.mapsofindia.com/top-ten/india-crops/rice.html)** > > Find here top 10 rice producing states in India along with a map. Also, find the data of production and yield of rice in million hectares. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/74 "2018-05-18T16:21:46Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Yes, but delivering a baby with feces on your hands versus cleaning your hands first can have a significant effect on the survival rate of a newborn. Sure. Now what makes you think that Europeans didn’t wash their hands before delivering babies, while the Chinese did? If you’re thinking about the famous Semmelweis story, you’re forgetting the part where Semmelweis noted that deliveries in a hospital resulted in worse outcomes than deliveries by midwives at home. Now, if Europeans always delivered babies with shit-encrusted hands, why was it that the midwives did better than the doctors? It wasn’t like Semmelweis was comparing European vs Chinese maternity practices, and found that the Chinese did better. He was comparing Viennese doctors who worked in charity hospitals vs Viennese midwives. So, should you wash your hands before you help deliver a baby? Yes! Good idea! Did the Chinese wash the shit off hands for millennia, while the ignorant Europeans didn’t? No, because the practice of not washing your hands was a particular practice of certain doctors in the 1840s. And for almost all of European history doctors did not help deliver babies. Attributing China’s higher population to better cleanliness is very silly. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/75 "2018-05-18T17:40:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Attributing China’s higher population to better cleanliness is very silly. Attributing it to any medical practice is silly. For much of history, most people never consulted a medical professional in their entire lives. Either they didn’t exist yet or only the rich could afford them. As several people said above, it’s all about how much food they could grow. Everything else is noise in the data. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260/76 "2018-05-18T17:41:54Z")
> [@naita](#): > > People also pay 100s of dollars buying homeopathic remedies, tiger bones, auyurvedic remedies and to get stung by bees. Some remedies from ancient Europe, ancient China and ancient India have been shown to have some effects, some have been shown not to, and there is nothing indicating that the ancient evaluation was any better in any of those areas. > > That you can use leeches to improve blood flow to reattached fingers doesn’t mean medieval European doctors were on to something with blood letting. And that people are now embracing some herbs and spices from ayurvedic medicine, even if that eventually leads to some solid scientific evidence (there’s still only maybes), doesn’t mean the whole system was justified. Some people have the attitude of, “Whatever is foreign and exotic is good, whatever is domestic and boring is ineffective.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-china-always-had-so-many-people/814260.md?page=3)