# Why has Middle Earth not gained/held the same cultural cachet that Star Wars has? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [September 23, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697 "2019-09-23T13:04:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/61 "2019-09-24T19:02:23Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Take notes and keep the spelling straight when reading Tolkien. Got it. These tips are great. Any decent edition of The Silmarillion will have various family trees in it. They are very handy. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/62 "2019-09-24T19:08:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > On the other hand, “Magic Boarding School” was already an established fantasy sub-genre before Harry Potter. A lot of similar stories exist primarily because of the existence of HP, but if those books never existed, there’d still be a good amount of “magic stuff happening in a school setting” stories out there. Indeed. [TVTropes has quite a large list](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WizardingSchool), many of them predating Harry Potter. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/63 "2019-09-24T19:11:55Z")
I know of the “Frodo Lives!” meme, but I’ve never seen it and don’t quite understand what is really meant by it. Is it a spoiler, like “Snape Kills Dumbledore”? Is it a more philosophical statement? What is it, old nerds that might still have a Frodo Lives T-shirt tucked away somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/64 "2019-09-24T19:18:40Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Indeed. [TVTropes has quite a large list](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WizardingSchool), many of them predating Harry Potter. Though even as TV Tropes mentions, Harry Potter is the ‘Trope Codifier’. So one can say that those that came after it probably were more influenced by HP than those beforehand. In similar ways as Star Wars (and perhaps even LOTR) in some respects. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/65 "2019-09-24T19:39:14Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > In addition to the merchandise (or perhaps part of it?), it is easier to put yourself into the Star Wars universe (or Harry Potter). The vast majority of characters, including main characters, are humanoid. The main characters in LOTR are hobbits and while there are humans, humanish elves, and wizards, I think being able to picture oneself more easily as a Jedi has helped matters a lot when it comes to Star Wars. I think it is the other way. People identify with the villains more these days. Everybody wants to be the baddie. And SW has better baddies. Who wants to dress up like a giant eye when you can be Vader or a stormtrooper? The baddies are either off screen (off page?) or faceless hordes of the undead or whatever in the LoTR series. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/66 "2019-09-25T01:20:55Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > I know of the “Frodo Lives!” meme, but I’ve never seen it and don’t quite understand what is really meant by it. Is it a spoiler, like “Snape Kills Dumbledore”? Is it a more philosophical statement? It was kind of a combination of “in-joke” and “spreading the word” for Middle-earth aficionados when LotR started getting really popular in America in the 60’s. [One analysis](http://www.frodolivesin.us/Catholicwork/id104.htm): > [@](#): > > Back in early 2001, before the LotR movies were released, which now seems like a very long time ago, I had an online conversation with a couple of teen-aged Tolkien readers about the “old days.” One of them had asked about the “Frodo lives” graffiti back in the 1960’s and the other replied that the main purpose behind it was that people who understood it could feel “in the know” compared to those who didn’t. As you might guess, I told them that, as someone who lived through the “old days,” I disagreed with this. What most Tolkien readers wanted then was for as many people as possible to understand what the phrase meant. Tolkien readers used the phrase for more than one reason; for the person who wrote it on a wall (or wore the button or used the bumper sticker), it could be a statement of faith in what Frodo stood for (in the 1960’s, I’d say the primary thing he stood for was the belief that evil could be truly defeated only without resorting to evil), a way to remind others with the same faith that they weren’t alone, and hopefully something that would get people who hadn’t encountered Middle-earth curious enough to find out about it. See also: [“Gandalf for President”](http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2018/05/gandalf-for-president-tolkien-and-fandom.html). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/67 "2019-09-25T07:31:52Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > Oh. This one is easy. Fantasy and science fiction are beloved mainly by boys, men. This really, really depends on how you classify “fantasy”, I think. Looking at what the young people I know are into (kids, up to mid-teens), I’d say the girls are \*way \*more into what I’d call fantasy than the boys. Stuff like My Little Pony or Disney movies are \*much \*more geared at girls than boys. Superhero stuff is where the boy’s interest seem to outweigh girls, but I count that as its own, third genre from Fantasy and SciFi. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/68 "2019-09-25T07:32:54Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > The baddies are either off screen (off page?) or faceless hordes of the undead or whatever in the LoTR series. Saruman wept… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/69 "2019-09-25T13:40:59Z")
The Tolkien Estate keeps a very tight grip on merchandising, and won’t do things even when it would be in their obvious and non-gauche financial interest to do so. I went to the recent exhibit of Tolkien’s manuscripts and handrawn maps at the Morgan Institute in NYC, and there were no postcards available in the gift shop. I asked a manager about it, and she told me that they’d had some but soon ran out, and the Tolkien Estate would not authorize the printing of any more - and this was with many weeks before the exhibit was to close. I just don’t get it - they’d already authorized the printing and sale of postcards; why wouldn’t they authorize the printing of \*more \*to meet public demand? So, other than unauthorized stuff, you’re not going to see nearly as many Tolkien T-shirts, bumper stickers, fridge magnets etc. as you will for _Star Wars_. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/70 "2019-09-25T14:16:21Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The Tolkien Estate keeps a very tight grip on merchandising, and won’t do things even when it would be in their obvious and non-gauche financial interest to do so. I went to the recent exhibit of Tolkien’s manuscripts and handrawn maps at the Morgan Institute in NYC, and there were no postcards available in the gift shop. I asked a manager about it, and she told me that they’d had some but soon ran out, and the Tolkien Estate would not authorize the printing of any more - and this was with many weeks before the exhibit was to close. I just don’t get it - they’d already authorized the printing and sale of postcards; why wouldn’t they authorize the printing of \*more \*to meet public demand? > > So, other than unauthorized stuff, you’re not going to see nearly as many Tolkien T-shirts, bumper stickers, fridge magnets etc. as you will for _Star Wars_. But the Tolkein estate isn’t the sole rights holder for merchandise. JRR sold off the movie, stage, and merchandising rights in LOTR and the Hobbit way back in 1969, and they’re currently held by [Middle-Earth Enterprises](https://www.middleearth.com/timeline.html). So absolutely you can get authorized [T-shirts](https://www.hobbitshop.com/collections/shirts), [magnets](https://www.hobbitshop.com/products/the-hobbit-the-battle-of-five-armies-dain-the-dwarf-magnet), or [shower curtains](https://www.hobbitshop.com/products/the-lord-of-the-rings-middle-earth-map-shower-curtain). ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/71 "2019-09-25T14:28:01Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > One can argue that magic school sort of shows/books take inspiration from HP. “The Magicians” is directly influenced. The original “youngster with magical talent goes to a school for wizards” novel was Ursula LeGuin’s A Wizard of EarthSea. I don’t know if Ms Rowlings was influenced by it, but it seems likely. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/72 "2019-09-25T16:24:44Z")
Stormtroopers are for Star Wars (and Nazis), but orcs are for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/73 "2019-09-25T19:21:56Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > The original “youngster with magical talent goes to a school for wizards” novel was Ursula LeGuin’s A Wizard of EarthSea. I don’t know if Ms Rowlings was influenced by it, but it seems likely. That is exactly what I thought, when I first read the Harry Potter stories. But it seems that _EarthSea_ was way down the list of unacknowledged influences, after numerous acknowledged ones. > **[Harry Potter influences and analogues](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_influences_and_analogues)** > > Writer J. K. Rowling cites several writers as influences in her creation of her bestselling Harry Potter series. Writers, journalists and critics have noted that the books also have a number of analogues; a wide range of literature, both classical and modern, which Rowling has not openly cited as influences. > This article is divided into three sections. The first section lists those authors and books which Rowling has suggested as possible influences on Harry Potter. The second section deals w... ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/74 "2019-09-25T19:49:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Saruman wept… How many kids dressed as Saruman do you see at Halloween? He looks like Gandolf. I rest my case. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/75 "2019-09-25T22:33:55Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > But the Tolkein estate isn’t the sole rights holder for merchandise. JRR sold off the movie, stage, and merchandising rights in LOTR and the Hobbit way back in 1969, and they’re currently held by [Middle-Earth Enterprises](https://www.middleearth.com/timeline.html). So absolutely you can get authorized [T-shirts](https://www.hobbitshop.com/collections/shirts), [magnets](https://www.hobbitshop.com/products/the-hobbit-the-battle-of-five-armies-dain-the-dwarf-magnet), or [shower curtains](https://www.hobbitshop.com/products/the-lord-of-the-rings-middle-earth-map-shower-curtain). 70 bucks for a shower curtain? :eek: :mad: :rolleyes: I kind of like some of the t-shirts, though. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/76 "2019-09-25T22:52:40Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > The original “youngster with magical talent goes to a school for wizards” novel was Ursula LeGuin’s A Wizard of EarthSea. Or, arguably, _Dracula_, if you count backstory: > [@Bram Stoker](#): > > The Draculas were, says Arminius, a great and noble race, though now and again were scions who were held by their coevals to have had dealings with the Evil One. They learned his secrets in the [Scholomance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholomance), amongst the mountains over Lake Hermanstadt, where the devil claims the tenth scholar as his due. (Yeah, I know, not really the same thing.) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/77 "2019-09-29T00:07:58Z")
Middle Earth is the Ur-example of medieval fantasy and more or less established the conventions that are widespread today. For example, Elves are now a race of tall and lithe beautiful people, not six inch-high brownies wearing pointed caps. The **genre** is successful, not just JJRT’s specific iteration of it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/78 "2019-09-29T01:47:32Z")
The funny thing tho is that, on the big screen at least, we haven’t gotten much JRRT style epic fantasy lately, at least since the final Hobbit film. [Game of Thrones on the small screen sure, tho the tone there is pretty different, along with stuff like World of Warcraft on the gaming side of things] Since then we’ve gotten something like 2 dozen superhero films of various sorts, by way of comparison. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/79 "2019-09-29T01:58:28Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > 70 bucks for a shower curtain? :eek: :mad: :rolleyes: > > I kind of like some of the t-shirts, though. > [@](#): > > We regret that this item is not available at this time. So you can’t be tempted by that shower curtain. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697/80 "2019-09-29T02:11:22Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Maybe The Hobbit is a juvenile fantasy, while Star Wars is a mature fantasy? From what I remember, Lucas got his ideas from sci-fi serials, swashbuckler films, Westerns, and war movies like _The Dam Busters_. Tolkien was said to have been inspired by European epics and legends but watered down somewhat for kids. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-middle-earth-not-gained-held-the-same-cultural-cachet-that-star-wars-has/840697.md?page=5)