# Why has religious belief eroded in Europe but not the United States? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2013, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198 "2013-12-01T08:15:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/21 "2013-12-01T14:09:44Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > If I’m in England and I think the government is corrupt or oppressive, it’d be hard not to view the government controlled Church of England the same way. But if I’m in America and think the government is corrupt or oppressive, that has very little to do with the Catholic Church. I would take issue with that. The English pretty well always think that the government is corrupt, much the same as Americans, and their 'control, is very much hands off. As per the OP, religious worship is in serious decline all over Europe. The premise that Europeans have a broader view of the world may be true, but this hardly accounts for the many broad differences of character. Americans are perceived as arrogant - our democracy is best and you should fall in line or else - violent - the right to bear arms and shoot people - and insular - The World Series? And that is the perception of their friends. Europeans are perceived as cosmopolitan, open and cynical. I suspect that a lot of the reason for American religiosity is to do with the vast size of the country, and the isolation of small towns. I have no evidence, but I think it is likely that people in small communities are more likely to be religious than those in large cities. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/22 "2013-12-01T14:12:32Z")
OK, I reread Hari Seldon’s post again and found out that it was the social worker, not the mathematician, who got into trouble teaching for being a Protestant. That may actually prevent her from being employed by the Catholic church to teach at a church-run school, since I suppose social work would be accepted by the courts as one of the areas where the churches may legally require their employees to belong to the particular faith. But it can’t possibly be true for a state-run school. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/23 "2013-12-01T15:23:15Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > I would take issue with that. The English pretty well always think that the government is corrupt, much the same as Americans, and their 'control, is very much hands off. As per the OP, religious worship is in serious decline all over Europe. And while religion may have more unofficial influence in politics in America, religion is more officially intertwined with politics in many European countries. For example, more than 90% of government funded primary schools in Ireland are run by the Catholic Church. > **[Education in the Republic of Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Types_of_school)** > > Education in the Republic of Ireland is a primary, secondary and higher (often known as "third-level" or tertiary) education. In recent years, further education has grown immensely, with 51% of working age adults having completed higher education by 2020. Growth in the economy since the 1960s has driven much of the change in the education system. For universities there are student service fees (up to €3,000 in 2015), which students are required to pay on registration, to cover examinations, ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/24 "2013-12-01T15:53:19Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > But it would seem to me that cultural norms from Western Europe would be very similar to the United States… This is the point where the question runs off the rails. The cultural norms in Western Europe are different in a great many ways from those in the U.S. and always have been. I can’t deny that the British model generally dominated in colonial times and was considered to be high culture for a long time after. But it was never universal, and large, influential pockets made their marks, from the Dutch in New York to the Quakers and Germans in Pennsylvania and the Catholics in Maryland. In the 19th century, huge numbers of immigrants from non-British cultures swelled the numbers and by the 20th century, the U.S. was a melting pot, a metaphor that was somewhat hyperbole but became truer and truer as second and third generations became thoroughly assimilated. Having a slave culture was also a change from the peasant and serf cultures of Europe. Even at the time the U.S. was looked at as different, sometimes dangerously different as during and after the Revolution. There are many more similarities between the U.S. and Europe than the U.S. and Asian cultures, true. But Europe is not a single place. It is a battleground divided into 30 countries and 100 cultures, almost all of whom take enormous pride in not being like that there other culture across the border. Differences between cultures should never be surprising; only similarities are. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/25 "2013-12-01T16:02:28Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Americans are perceived as arrogant To be fair, just like the British or the French or the Germans or the Spanish during the heyday of their colonial empires. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/26 "2013-12-01T16:19:26Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Here’s one possible data point\*: > Religious belief in America is, and always has been **personal** belief–Not institutionally-imposed belief. > Religious issues in European history have almost never been about personal belief, but about the political institutions which proclaimed those beliefs, and determined the social order. > (And then controlled the government and catered to/persecuted individuals in accordance to those beliefs.) > > When the institutions became impotent, the people’s religious belief did, too. This sounds good, but avoids the question as to why religion no longer has the same political power. It’s tempting to just say, religious extremists were pushed out of Europe and sent to America, but those religious extremists were pushed out by other religious extremists. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/27 "2013-12-01T16:32:49Z")
I think it’s due to what some have suggested. In Europe there’s a tradition of religion being an issue that’s decided at the top of the social system. In America, the government was set up to explicitly deny the possibility of an official religion. American religious beliefs are decided from the bottom up. The result is Americans feel more invested in their religious choices. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/28 "2013-12-01T16:36:25Z")
I don’t think there is a factual answer to the OP, which is why this subject has been done a few times in GD. [Here’s one thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=616913) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/29 "2013-12-01T16:38:40Z")
Since the answer to this is debatable, let’s move it to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![spymaniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@spymaniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spymaniac)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/30 "2013-12-01T16:52:54Z")
there’s tons of ‘religious beef’ in England currently. in fact can’t remember a more ‘beefy’ time in that regard. mosques getting firebombed all over the place, fundamentalist islamics holding rallies where they call for the death of the british/anyone not obaying sharia law… the very fact that the EDL (English Defence League) only existed in the past couple of years shows how high tensions are at the mo… possibly extends to other parts of Europe as well, don’t forget the worst spree killer of all time Anders Brevik in Norway 2011, motivated by hatred of muslims/islam edit - lol, I thought you said ‘beef’, but you said ‘belief’… #pause# ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/31 "2013-12-01T16:59:56Z")
> [@Dereknocue67](#): > > Perhaps people in other Western countries take these words more seriously: > > _Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones._ > > **Marcus Aurelius** That quote just about says it all. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/32 "2013-12-01T17:47:41Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > This sounds good, but avoids the question as to why religion no longer has the same political power. > > It’s tempting to just say, religious extremists were pushed out of Europe and sent to America, but those religious extremists were pushed out by other religious extremists. I would say religious extremists were not pushed out but chose to leave to go somewhere where they could practise their extremist beliefs. > [@spymaniac](#): > > there’s tons of ‘religious beef’ in England currently. in fact can’t remember a more ‘beefy’ time in that regard. mosques getting firebombed all over the place, fundamentalist islamics holding rallies where they call for the death of the british/anyone not obaying sharia law… This is quite an exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/33 "2013-12-01T17:52:53Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > Hi, I’m curious why religious belief has faded in most of the developed world, but not in the United States. This is probably going to be a hard question to answer when comparing Japan or South Korea to the US since our cultures are so different to begin with. I don’t know about Japan, but Christianity is probably a lot stronger in South Korea than it is in the United States. For myself, I’d say it has to do with the religious diversity within the US and the historical lack of power of the various churches in America. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/34 "2013-12-01T18:07:09Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Religion is just one aspect of a wider cultural fundamentalism. American culture is more fundamentalist and extremist in pretty much every aspect, not only religion. > > This is what happens when you feel Right and Good and God are on your side and you have been chosen to expand and disseminate these values. > > It is more violent in every way. Guns, death penalty, prison sentences,\*\* interaction with police and other authorities.\*\* I don’t want to start a hijack and I’m hardly a huge defender of the police, but I’m not sure what makes you feel that the police in America are somehow more brutal or people have a more negative opinion of them than is the case in say Spain, Italy, or France. If you talk to Muslims in Europe you’ll find many have dramatically different ideas. And since the OP started by talking about the developed world, let’s not even begin discussing Japan. In my experience, pretty much around the world, police are quite harsh, particularly when in comes to minorities. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/35 "2013-12-01T18:45:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t want to start a hijack and I’m hardly a huge defender of the police, but I’m not sure what makes you feel that the police in America are somehow more brutal or people have a more negative opinion of them than is the case in say Spain, Italy, or France. The fact that I have personal experience with both and the fact that I follow the news. People get shot by the police in America in situations where it would be unthinkable here. Americans have that certainty about the righteousness of their system and authorities which just does not exist elsewhere. American police shoot and kill a guy because he was holding a knife or because they were not sure if he was holding a knife and most Americans think it is fine. This is just unthinkable here. In Spain there is a huge outcry because the government wanted to put razor wire on the border with Morocco and illegals might cut and hurt themselves. Most of society, including bishops, have said it is barbaric and unacceptable because they are human and entitled to Human Rights. Huge outcry. There is just no way I can imagine a similar situation in America where xenophobia runs rampant through society and political discourse. Same thing with religion in political discourse. Any politician here who would even mention religion would be laughed at whereas in America it is part of the political discourse constantly. Same with the obssession with sex. ---
**Author:** ![lew\_cody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e274bd/32.png) [@lew\_cody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lew_cody)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/36 "2013-12-01T18:47:29Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > But Europe is not a single place. It is a battleground divided into 30 countries and 100 cultures, almost all of whom take enormous pride in not being like that there other culture across the border. Differences between cultures should never be surprising; only similarities are. Indeed, to take one example, Poland and the Czech Republic share some important cultural roots–they speak Slavic languages and landed in the Western/Catholic sphere of influence rather than the Eastern/Orthodox one. Both were formed from countries that broke up/shrank after WWI. Both were in the Warsaw Pact for about the same length of time. Yet in terms of religiosity, they couldn’t be more different. Poland is highly Catholic, second only to Malta in terms of the percentage of adherents, while the Czech Republic is one of the least religious countries on Earth. In a 2010 Eurobarometer poll, 79% of Poles believed in a god, while only 16% of Czech respondents did. I think an argument could be made that Poland and Malta are overall more religious than, say, the NE United States and much of the West Coast. It isn’t so much the Catholic Church and mainline Protestant groups that give the US its reputation for religiosity; it’s the much noisier Evangelical contingent, especially Southern Baptists. That brand of religion has never achieved much of a following in Europe, for whatever reason. The World Baptist Alliance does count more than 732,000 Baptists in Europe, but that’s a tiny percentage. (The Southern Baptist Convention does not belong to the WBA, so perhaps European Baptists are more moderate–I don’t know.) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/37 "2013-12-01T19:02:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > And since the OP started by talking about the developed world, let’s not even begin discussing Japan. …Tasteless joke? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/38 "2013-12-01T19:40:38Z")
As others have said the US seems more fanatical and authoritarian than much of contemporary western nations in various secular areas too. Our attitudes towards law enforcement, crime, nationalism, etc are all more fanatical and top heavy than what you would likely find in places like Australia or France. Did Europe really send their most fanatical citizens to the US 100 years ago? I know we had a flood of immigrants during that time but I didn’t know religion had anything to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/39 "2013-12-01T20:04:30Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > And while religion may have more unofficial influence in politics in America, religion is more officially intertwined with politics in many European countries. For example, more than 90% of government funded primary schools in Ireland are run by the Catholic Church. While this is true, it doesn’t support your case. While the relationship between church and state in Ireland is historically complex, the decline of belief in Ireland came much later than in other European countries with a longer history of secularism. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/40 "2013-12-01T20:24:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Did Europe really send their most fanatical citizens to the US 100 years ago? I know we had a flood of immigrants during that time but I didn’t know religion had anything to do with it. Not just to the US, overseas in general, and not just 100 years ago but for the last 500 and change, but as others have said: although there were expulsions (Spain’s two big ones come to mind, basically the most fanatic ones were shipping themselves, either to convert the natives or to be able to practice without being surrounded by heathens. The 3-Masses-in-a-lifetime people didn’t feel any need to do either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198.md?page=3)