# Why has religious belief eroded in Europe but not the United States? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2013, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198 "2013-12-01T08:15:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/101 "2013-12-03T22:11:24Z")
> [@dolwgan](#): > > I’m not sure, John. After all, its two main parties are still well right of centre in European terms. In fact, there is no left-of-centre party in the US. Depends on where you arbitrarily assign the ‘centre’ to be. Obviously you have arbitrarily assigned it to equal what YOU think is the ‘centre’, no? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/102 "2013-12-03T22:13:26Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > America worships money and celebrity. > > Don’t fool yourself if you think otherwise. Well, I’ll try… ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/103 "2013-12-03T22:21:36Z")
> [@dolwgan](#): > > I’m not sure, John. After all, its two main parties are still well right of centre in European terms. In fact, there is no left-of-centre party in the US. What is your argument, exactly? There was no left-of-center major party in the U.S. 50 years ago either. (Very small parties existed then and exist today.) There is no question that the U.S. is vastly more liberal today than 50 years ago. You would think that the insistence of today’s conservatives to go back to attitudes of that time and earlier would be proof in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/104 "2013-12-04T00:34:34Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > What is your argument, exactly? There was no left-of-center major party in the U.S. 50 years ago either. (Very small parties existed then and exist today.) > > There is no question that the U.S. is vastly more liberal today than 50 years ago. You would think that the insistence of today’s conservatives to go back to attitudes of that time and earlier would be proof in and of itself. 50 years ago? You mean when Medicare (real socialized medicine) got passed? Just before Nixon started the EPA? Socially we are more liberal. Politically, maybe not. Goldwater - a moderate by today’s standards - got creamed, remember. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/105 "2013-12-04T00:37:03Z")
> [@wntrgrdn](#): > > Lack of independent thought. > > Poor education. > > Sheeple mentality passed down generation to generation. > > EVANGELICISM - serious bible thumping. I personally have had crusaders visit my doorstep over 20 times. And I live in one of the most independent thinking, well educated cities in the country, and the crusaders (Mars Hill, The City Church, etc.) have practically taken over our city. > > Cult mentality. > > Low self esteem - a need to “belong” to something to validate your existence. > > Shall I continue… ? I would not recommend continuing, given the paucity of thought provided in your list of “bumper-sticker” claims. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/106 "2013-12-04T00:41:26Z")
> [@dolwgan](#): > > Is there any reason why you include JW’s Muslims and Buddhists in a list of 'churches, Filbert? Why not Baptist, Brethren, Methodist, Pentecostalist, Presbyterian, etc? After all, there are probably more non-Catholic and Anglican Christian denominations in the UK than there are other, non-Christian religions. Probably because he was referring to people he actually knew, personally. For example, I knew a rather large number of Presbyterians when I was growing up, but, for some reason, I am not sure that I know a single one at this time, despite living within a mile of a fairly large Presbyterian church. Demographics vary by locations, employment, social associations, etc. Just take the statement as it was presented rather than trying to read more into it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/107 "2013-12-04T00:43:02Z")
[ol] [li]No State-sponsored sect[/li][li]No religious warfare here[/li][li]Competition among faiths for converts.[/li][li]Long distances. Orthodoxy is based on how often the Bishop drops by for tea.[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/108 "2013-12-04T00:59:25Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Religious belief has eroded quite a bit in the United States, it just hasn’t completely collapsed the way it has in most of Europe. Hold on, folks. Let’s start by establishing whether religious belief in Europe has either “completely collapsed,” as **Lemur** says, or “eroded,” as the thread title puts it. Has it? Imma gonna need some cites, statistics, that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/109 "2013-12-04T01:08:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > 50 years ago? You mean when Medicare (real socialized medicine) got passed? Just before Nixon started the EPA? > Socially we are more liberal. Politically, maybe not. Goldwater - a moderate by today’s standards - got creamed, remember. You’re cherrypicking. Any overall look at history would give a thousand contrary examples. It’s particularly telling that your example of Medicare was passed not quite 50 years ago, in 1965 along with the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts that came about only because of a peculiar and unrepeatable combination of events. And pretty much by definition any time in which a program is introduced can’t be considered in the same way as a later time in which the program is ingrained as a basic part of society’s fabric. Goldwater was not a moderate by any standard. That’s a particularly silly rewriting of history. And the same objection holds: even the most paleoconservative of today’s Congressmen accept a thousand aspects of society that were violently opposed then. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/110 "2013-12-04T02:21:49Z")
> [@dolwgan](#): > > Is there any reason why you include JW’s Muslims and Buddhists in a list of 'churches, Filbert? Why not Baptist, Brethren, Methodist, Pentecostalist, Presbyterian, etc? After all, there are probably more non-Catholic and Anglican Christian denominations in the UK than there are other, non-Christian religions. Have you ever heard of something called “ellipsis”? From m-w: a : the omission of one or more words that are obviously understood but that must be supplied to make a construction grammatically complete The ellipsis in **Filbert** ’s post mean “and a bunch more”. In order for Filbert’s post to “not include” all those people you mention, she would have had to finish with “Muslims and Buddhists”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/111 "2013-12-04T02:35:32Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > [ol] > [li]No State-sponsored sect[/li][li]No religious warfare here[/li][li]Competition among faiths for converts.[/li][/ol] This, in my view. A single Christian sect was never allowed to make itself the state religion, nor was there the kind of open religious war you saw all over Europe. Sure there was plenty of religious animosity and oppression; but it wasn’t at the level where the states were invading each other and burning towns because they were Catholic or Protestant. The fact that the violence was kept under relative control meant that churches generally were pushed into trying to make themselves more appealing, or at least into using more subtle forms of coercion instead of just putting a sword to the throats of unbelievers and demanding they convert. Therefore, when the grip of religion on society began to weaken there wasn’t nearly the same level of built up animosity against it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/112 "2013-12-04T07:58:25Z")
> [@dolwgan](#): > > Wrong, NB. The membership of the CofE is determined by who is on the electoral role of its various parishes. cite? How can that be? So everyone on the electoral role of whatever religion is included as a C of E member? > [@](#): > > As for tithing being a particularly USA concept, it has been around for centuries, even before the time of Christ. If anything, its a Jewish concept which has been absorbed into Christian thinking. The USA bit about the concept is that it only applies to money. Most other parts of Christendom appreciate that it covers time and abilities, and not just money. The only people I’ve ever heard speak about tithing are American Christians. I had to have it explained to me as it doesn’t ever get mentioned in the UK to my knowledge. other countries may do so of course. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/113 "2013-12-04T20:47:25Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > It’s a matter of acknowledging the country of origin as a party in the relationship, the same principle under which we do not perform weddings for people whose wedding would be illegal in their country. Before we grant jus solis nationality to someone, we want a paper from the government from which they get jus sanguinis saying that’s not going to be a problem. Why should we not recognize their jus sanguinis nationality? That is something totally different from what you said in the post I quoted. Your post I quoted said that the granting or non-granting of jus soli nationality was “governed by bilateral treaties”. Now you’re saying that Spanish law will grant jus soli nationality only to the children of foreign residents who present a document saying that “that’s not going to be a problem”. I wonder what these problems should be - certainly the laws of country A cannot prevent country B from granting citizenship to whoever the laws of country B decide to grant citizenship. So why should country B defer to the law of another country in making a decision which is solely country A’s to make? It’s true that some countries require naturalisation applicants to renounce their previous citizenship and will wave this requirement if the applicant demonstrates that the previous country’s law does not allow for renunciation of citizenship; but that’s the exact opposite of the constellation we’re discussing here - it’s about country B deciding to refuse nationality to an applicant for reasons country B determines relevant on the basis of its own interest; it’s not at all about country B deferring to the will of country A in making the decision. Anyway, I could not find anything in Spanish law to that effect. The [Código Civil](http://civil.udg.edu/normacivil/estatal/CC/1T1.htm) says: > [@](#): > > Artículo 17 > > 1. Son españoles de origen: > a) Los nacidos de padre o madre españoles. > b) Los nacidos en España de padres extranjeros si, al menos, uno de ellos hubiera nacido también en España. Se exceptúan los hijos de funcionario diplomático o consular acreditado en España. > c) Los nacidos en España de padres extranjeros, si ambos carecieren de nacionalidad o si la legislación de ninguno de ellos atribuye al hijo una nacionalidad. > d) Los nacidos en España cuya filiación no resulte determinada. A estos efectos se presumen nacidos en territorio español los menores de edad cuyo primer lugar conocido de estancia sea territorio español. > 2. La filiación o el nacimiento en España, cuya determinación se produzca después de los dieciocho años de edad, no son por sí solos causa de adquisición de la nacionalidad española. El interesado tiene entonces derecho a optar por la nacionalidad española de origen en el plazo de dos años a contar desde aquella determinación. The closest to what we’re discussing here is (1)(c), but that’s still very different from Spain checking whether another country has “any problems” about a newborn being given Spanish nationality. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/114 "2013-12-04T21:46:47Z")
Is this really a U.S. v. Europe thing, or an urban v. rural thing? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/115 "2013-12-04T23:47:09Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The only people I’ve ever heard speak about tithing are American Christians. I had to have it explained to me as it doesn’t ever get mentioned in the UK to my knowledge. other countries may do so of course. It faded away in more modern times, but back in the Middle Ages and up to the Enlightenment not only was tithing a Thing in Europe (including the UK), it was essentially a mandatory land tax to be paid directly to the Church, in produce from the land. That’s how many monasteries thrived, got so filthy rich, and could afford to keep many monks sitting on their arses all day painting farting monkeys in the margins of their books :). One of the root causes for the French Revolution, too, as it (along with the salt tax, though for different reasons) was among the less than popular ones. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/116 "2013-12-05T00:24:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Is this really a U.S. v. Europe thing, or an urban v. rural thing? Many American cities are quite religious. If there’s a difference it’s more [regional](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/18/most-and-least-religious-cities_n_1522644.html) than urban/rural. > [@](#): > > In general, cities where more than 75 percent identified as a religious adherent were in the deep South and in the Midwest. Cities where less than 35 percent identified as a religious adherent were in the West and in the Northeast. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/117 "2013-12-05T01:43:42Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’d liken it more to a historical European top-down imposition of religion vs. the bottom-up nature of American religion. > > In other words, a bunch of European countries were more or less mass converted to Christianity with the collusion and often the force of the ruling authorities. Everyone was Christian and there was little tolerance for anything else. > > Contrast that with the US, where there’s always been a strict\* separation of church and state, and you end up with a situation where the actual religious people are doing it out of inherent desire, rather than having it imposed on them. Self selecting for increased fervor and faith, as it were… > > - The bush-league shit the religious right is doing these days doesn’t compare to say… 17th century England. > [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > [ol] > [li]No State-sponsored sect[/li][li]No religious warfare here[/li][li]Competition among faiths for converts.[/li][li]Long distances. Orthodoxy is based on how often the Bishop drops by for tea.[/li][/ol] > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > This, in my view. A single Christian sect was never allowed to make itself the state religion, nor was there the kind of open religious war you saw all over Europe. Sure there was plenty of religious animosity and oppression; but it wasn’t at the level where the states were invading each other and burning towns because they were Catholic or Protestant. :dubious: It is not really a fair comparison to contrast the religious attitudes and practices of the US (post-1776) with those of Europe from [a century or two before](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion). If you’re going to make oblique references to the Thirty Years’ War or the English Civil War, then I would note that during the same timeframe, the earliest English colonies in what would become the US were being established by, or quickly subsumed by, [religious extremists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Colony) and [slaveholders](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_of_Virginia) (the ones not swiped from the Dutch, that is). By the time of the American Revolution, the [Enlightenment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment) was well-established in Europe, before crossing the Atlantic. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/118 "2013-12-05T02:21:08Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > :dubious: > > It is not really a fair comparison to contrast the religious attitudes and practices of the US (post-1776) with those of Europe from [a century or two before](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion). If you’re going to make oblique references to the Thirty Years’ War or the English Civil War, then I would note that during the same timeframe, the earliest English colonies in what would become the US were being established by, or quickly subsumed by, [religious extremists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Colony) and [slaveholders](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_of_Virginia) (the ones not swiped from the Dutch, that is). By the time of the American Revolution, the [Enlightenment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment) was well-established in Europe, before crossing the Atlantic. I think you are onto something here, immigrants tend to hold onto old cultures. I remember stories of friends who were 1st generation children of Greek immigrants to Australia, when they went to Greece on holidays they realised their parents were more Greek than the Greeks! The “old country” had moved on. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/119 "2013-12-05T17:04:37Z")
Still no cites showing that “religious belief” has “eroded” or “collapsed” over in Europe. Got one\* saying that the European country with the _highest_ percentage of self-described atheists is France, where they make up 15% of the population. Again: That’s the _highest_ number in all of Europe. Doesn’t sound very dramatic to me. - von Stuckrad, _Locations of Knowledge in Medieval and Early Modern Europe_, page 9. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198/120 "2013-12-05T17:13:59Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Still no cites showing that “religious belief” has “eroded” or “collapsed” over in Europe. > > Got one\* saying that the European country with the _highest_ percentage of self-described atheists is France, where they make up 15% of the population. Again: That’s the _highest_ number in all of Europe. Doesn’t sound very dramatic to me. > > - von Stuckrad, _Locations of Knowledge in Medieval and Early Modern Europe_, page 9. [Here’s one](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#Europe), it’s the result of a 2010 Eurobarometer poll. 20% of respondants said they “do not believe there is a spirit, God, nor life force” (as opposed to “I believe there is a God”, or “I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force”). The nations with the most people who chose that option were: France - 40% Czech Republic - 37% Sweden - 34% Netherlands - 30% Norway - 29% Estonia - 29% Germany - 27% Belgium - 27% [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-religious-belief-eroded-in-europe-but-not-the-united-states/675198.md?page=7)