# Why has so much power/influence left labor and gone to capital, at least in the US **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656 "2011-03-22T22:25:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/141 "2011-04-04T18:12:21Z")
Originally Posted by Le Jacquelope do with the unemployed who spend years without a job? And there are quite a few of them now (to put it lightly). I have an idea. How about this. We have roads that are being replaced with asphalt, crumbling bridges, and an alternative energy infrastructure that needs to be built.. > [@emacknight](#): > > This isn’t the 1930’s. The things you are describing take specialized skill (and training). It’s not enough to just pay people to dig ditches any more. Very few of the 16million unemployed are ready to go out and repair bridges. Remember what you said about offshoring? Tech industry? Biotech? A guy with a masters in biochemistry is pretty useless on a construction site. The people today are just as smart as people in the 1930’s. There is no reason why people today cant work digging a ditch or building a road or planting a forest just like the people of the 1930’s learned how to do it. A guy with a masters in biochemistry can dig a hole or pour concrete same as a high school graduate. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/142 "2011-04-05T01:25:21Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > :rolleyes: You’ve accused me of knowing nothing about economics and yet you bring up this blatant non-sequitur? > > We have no buggy-whip scenario coming in this industry, at least not in the major sectors of tech and manufacturing. What do you think is replacing computer programming, and the manufacturing of automobiles and computers? The buggy-whip scenario applies to things that are obsolete. People will always want computer software, cars and computers. Unless someone comes up with transmat technology and self-aware, self-programming computers. 😃 And if you think automation is replacing manufacturing, well I’ve about a few thousand _Toyota_ workers in America earning over $27/hour who would beg to differ with you. Hey, if I can replace you with a robot, computer program or an Indian guy who will work for 1/5 your wage, your job IS as obsolete as the buggy whip. Yes, people still want cars and computers and whatnot. Should we pay people to crank out cars and computers that no one wants to buy because they are too expensive? > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > We punish the fools who gave away our competitive advantage. Abandon the concept of trickle-down economics? Scale back the whole scam of globalism a notch or two, like Asia and the BRIC’s have done? And what if the “competetive advantage” is having a shit-ton of people who are willing to work for almost nothing because they live in mud huts? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/143 "2011-04-05T01:36:09Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And what if the “competetive advantage” is having a shit-ton of people who are willing to work for almost nothing because they live in mud huts? Technically it’s not mud it’s cow shit baked into a brick. Ordinarily I wouldn’t bring that up but it’s almost the rainy season… And queue the misuse of “labour arbitrage” in 5 4 3 2 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/144 "2011-04-05T01:44:39Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Technically it’s not mud it’s cow shit baked into a brick. Ordinarily I wouldn’t bring that up but it’s almost the rainy season… Whatever. I don’t need to know about your mama’s house. > [@emacknight](#): > > And queue the misuse of “labour arbitrage” in > 5 > 4 > 3 > 2 Really? Because that’s a textbook example of “labour arbitrage”. And it doesn’t really address the question. What is le “competetive advantage” of which Le Jacquelope is speaking? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/145 "2011-04-05T01:58:30Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Whatever. I don’t need to know about your mama’s house. Oh snap. > [@msmith537](#): > > Really? Because that’s a textbook example of “labour arbitrage”. Which is why this all makes sense to those that have read an economics text book. For those with “street smarts” and “86% of Americans on their side” the stuff gets a little blurry. We’ve now come full circle so **Le Jacquelope** can start his rant all over again. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/146 "2011-04-05T02:00:35Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > The people today are just as smart as people in the 1930’s. There is no reason why people today cant work digging a ditch or building a road or planting a forest just like the people of the 1930’s learned how to do it. > > A guy with a masters in biochemistry can dig a hole or pour concrete same as a high school graduate. Digging a hole has gotten significantly harder than it was in the 1930s, as evident by the number of people that find themselves in said hole. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/147 "2011-04-05T03:18:17Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Oh snap. 😃 > [@emacknight](#): > > Which is why this all makes sense to those that have read an economics text book. For those with “street smarts” and “86% of Americans on their side” the stuff gets a little blurry. We’ve now come full circle so **Le Jacquelope** can start his rant all over again. I wouldn’t know. Working in NYC, I don’t think I’m part of “Real America”.☹ ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/148 "2011-04-05T03:32:24Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I wouldn’t know. Working in NYC, I don’t think I’m part of “Real America”.☹ Aw, emacknight is still frothing at the mouth about how unpopular his point of view is. Poor him. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/149 "2011-04-05T03:38:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Hey, if I can replace you with a robot, computer program or an Indian guy who will work for 1/5 your wage, your job IS as obsolete as the buggy whip. Replacing someone with a robot makes the job obsolete. Replacing someone with someone else does not make it obsolete. Some person still has to do the job for some wage. Matter of fact, it’s not obsolete until it’s replaced by something else completely. Like, say, a car replacing the buggy whip. > [@](#): > > Yes, people still want cars and computers and whatnot. Should we pay people to crank out cars and computers that no one wants to buy because they are too expensive? Error, again. People were buying computers when they cost $3000. I was one of them and I was pretty damned poor back then. I saved up for it. The problem is fewer computers will sell because people will actually keep them and they might also be made to last longer, too. > [@](#): > > And what if the “competetive advantage” is having a shit-ton of people who are willing to work for almost nothing because they live in mud huts? Good luck with them ever being able to buy anything at those wages. Computers may be cheaper but the “work for almost nothing” crowd will be killed by relatively high food prices and high energy prices - oh, I _forgot_. That’s conveniently not counted by arbitrary economic thinking as costs of living or inflation. Oh and those high food prices are close to killing them right now. But hey, don’t you worry yourself about tariffs. These monster trade deficits America is running will devalue the US dollar until imports become impossibly expensive anyway. Then you can come back here and say “I won! We prevented tariffs! Hooray!” Fat lot of good that’ll do you. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/150 "2011-04-05T03:40:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Whatever. I don’t need to know about your mama’s house. > > Really? Because that’s a textbook example of “labour arbitrage”. And it doesn’t really address the question. What is le “competetive advantage” of which Le Jacquelope is speaking? Cue emacknight rote memorization and regurgitation of economic theories that are totally irrelevant to today in 5 4 3 2… ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/151 "2011-04-05T04:13:01Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Good luck with them ever being able to buy anything at those wages. Can’t they just save like you did? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/152 "2011-04-05T04:14:02Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Cue emacknight rote memorization and regurgitation of economic theories that are totally irrelevant to today in > 5 > 4 > 3 > 2… Places everyone, we’re taking it from the top, take 12. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/153 "2011-04-05T05:53:31Z")
Tell us again how free trade is ever going to put 16 million Americans back to work. Much less the 200 million worldwide who are out of a job. Your rote memorized economics formulas and principles ain’t working, dude. They’re obsolete. “Too bad for you people” is not a valid or civilized solution. You only create a class of people who no longer have any reason to support the system at all. In case you haven’t been reading the news, this “too bad for you workers” attitude is what caused so much unrest in the Middle East. That mess out there is a worker’s rebellion. Buncha college educated working class who are sick of having no jobs. That is the future we all face. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/154 "2011-04-05T12:19:46Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Replacing someone with a robot makes the job obsolete. Replacing someone with someone else does not make it obsolete. Some person still has to do the job for some wage. But it makes your “competive advantage” obsolete if your only advantage is labor costs. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Error, again. People were buying computers when they cost $3000. I was one of them and I was pretty damned poor back then. I saved up for it. I forgot the US economy is all about you. Well now thanks to outsourcing you can buy a $1000 computer and spend the rest buying other stuff you need or want. Isn’t economics great? > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > The problem is fewer computers will sell because people will actually keep them and they might also be made to last longer, too. Last longer than what? Computers don’t “last” because technological advances render them obsolete. Not because they wear out. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Good luck with them ever being able to buy anything at those wages. Computers may be cheaper but the “work for almost nothing” crowd will be killed by relatively high food prices and high energy prices - oh, I _forgot_. That’s conveniently not counted by arbitrary economic thinking as costs of living or inflation. Oh and those high food prices are close to killing them right now. Not really sure where you are going with this one. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > But hey, don’t you worry yourself about tariffs. These monster trade deficits America is running will devalue the US dollar until imports become impossibly expensive anyway. Then you can come back here and say “I won! We prevented tariffs! Hooray!” Fat lot of good that’ll do you. Right, because tariffs have done wonders in the past. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/155 "2011-04-05T12:24:06Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Tell us again how free trade is ever going to put 16 million Americans back to work. Much less the 200 million worldwide who are out of a job. > > Your rote memorized economics formulas and principles ain’t working, dude. They’re obsolete. > > “Too bad for you people” is not a valid or civilized solution. You only create a class of people who no longer have any reason to support the system at all. In case you haven’t been reading the news, this “too bad for you workers” attitude is what caused so much unrest in the Middle East. > > That mess out there is a worker’s rebellion. Buncha college educated working class who are sick of having no jobs. That is the future we all face. So what is your solution exactly? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/156 "2011-04-05T17:11:52Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So what is your solution exactly? In his many pit threads, the solution was insanely high tariffs on all countries except Europe, Canada, and Japan (sorry Australia and NZ). ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/157 "2011-04-07T19:05:27Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Many **Democrat politicians** PSSSST!!! DUDE!!! Get your disguise in place! While you’re undercover, you only call them “Democrat politicians” and “The Democrat Party” amongst known and trusted fellow Republicans! ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/158 "2011-04-09T06:25:12Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So what is your solution exactly? Oh, my solutions are quite radical. I’d institute a system of trickle-up economics. Replace the trickle-down system entirely. I’d also ditch the WTO; in fact I’d throw a party while I did it. I’d go back to 1950s-1970s level progressive taxation. (If you think rates during those years were “high”, consider the Beatles fled to us, not the other way around.) Slap a VAT on imports. Direct funding toward the space exploration industry which now spends $18 billion and makes back many times that in tax receipts; plus mandate, for national security reasons, that all materials be made here and all work be done here. Outlaw processing of personal financial or medical information overseas. Have “Works Councils” [like they do in Germany](http://www.rdwolff.com/content/german-workers-real-job-powers). Have companies with over 2000 workers have half the board of directors elected by workers. By law. I’d increase Government funding for solar projects to bring the cost down to $0.05 KWH, to compete with China’s growing subsidies. Matter of fact I might consider matching China subsidy for subsidy until they get the point and back off. I’d also institute a nationwide academic olympics program and siphon money away from the Military Industrial Complex toward paying big awards to high-achievers to elevate them to rock star status. Money would go toward making science and innovation fairs more common and more conspicuous, with the help of corporate and Government sponsors. Kids would be inspired to tackle America’s pressing energy crisis and space exploration questions. (Don’t put too much past them - a [16 year old boy](http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/10/16-year-old-built-100-mpg-hybrid-sports-car.php) can do wonders.) Put the smart kids on the same level of prestige as the jocks. Matter of fact I might also divert money from the MIC to kids who are heavily engaged in charities, too. You’d _hate_ the America I envision. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/159 "2011-04-09T06:31:14Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You’d _hate_ the America I envision. 😃 So would you. Canada on the other hand would rock, and we’d have you to thank for it. Expect a bottle of maple syrup and a Celine Dion CD, assuming you have something to play it on. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/160 "2011-04-09T06:57:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Well now thanks to outsourcing you can buy a $1000 computer and spend the rest buying other stuff you need or want. Isn’t economics great? Good luck buying one when you’re out of work or you’re working a minimum wage job, which is the bulk of the joke we call this economic recovery. But then this economy isn’t about all the people who get put out of work, is it? Oh, I forgot: around here, out of work = trip to Spain. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Last longer than what? Computers don’t “last” because technological advances render them obsolete. Not because they wear out. That only really matters to gamers. Most others will hang onto their machines until they die, or until Windows imposes an upgrade to the latest bug-ridden bloated moneymak-er, OS. > [@](#): > > Right, because tariffs have done wonders in the past. Like I said, don’t you worry yourself about those overly-maligned tariffs. You’ve got bigger problems coming - a dollar crash. Tell me, what is the size of BRIC’s and the third world’s exports to the US? They have all of that much to lose, at least. We put 20 million Chinese out of work in 2009 because of our recession. Think of how many poor innocent Chinese workers will suffer when our dollar crashes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656.md?page=9)