# Why has so much power/influence left labor and gone to capital, at least in the US **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656 "2011-03-22T22:25:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/161 "2011-04-09T07:06:27Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Like I said, don’t you worry yourself about those overly-maligned tariffs. You’ve got bigger problems coming - a dollar crash. Record low inflation since 2008 says you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/162 "2011-04-09T10:26:53Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Good luck buying one when you’re out of work or you’re working a minimum wage job, which is the bulk of the joke we call this economic recovery. But then this economy isn’t about all the people who get put out of work, is it? Oh, I forgot: around here, out of work = trip to Spain. :rolleyes: Aruba actually. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > We put 20 million Chinese out of work in 2009 because of our recession. Think of how many poor innocent Chinese workers will suffer when our dollar crashes. That’s like a small Chinese village. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You’d hate the America I envision. Yeah, because it’s fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/163 "2011-04-09T10:30:23Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Canada on the other hand would rock… Like Bryan Adams “rock” or Avril Lavign “rock”? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/164 "2011-04-09T12:19:02Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yeah, because it’s fucking stupid. Some of my ideas work in China. Others work quite well in Germany. Your ideas are a total failure. You don’t have any solutions except to continue the failed course of exploiting workers and preserving the plutocracy. But then that comes from how little you know about economics. Tariffs work. Free trade does not. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/165 "2011-04-09T12:35:23Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Record low inflation since 2008 says you’re wrong. Rising oil prices, skyrocketing food prices, and the dollar’s chronic loss of value all say [I’m right](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/08/us-inflation-federal-reserve-food-oil_n_846774.html). But that’s the problem here - your arguments are totally out of touch. You don’t even know what’s happening out there in working class America, or why they’re starting to [reject capitalism](http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/radar10w2_free_market/). Your answer is always “the polls are wrong”. That’s called living in denial. Americans are tired of workers losing influence in favor of the owners of capital. You’ve seen the rebellions in the Middle East and the riots in Europe. What in the _world_ keeps you thinking that this is impossible here? I’d like to repost something that you guys seem not to have read when it was posted… but you’ll look back on this some time soon - 10 years at the most - and understand what went wrong with the US and even global economy: > [@Social Darwinism - the only logical explanation?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-darwinism-the-only-logical-explanation/569468/52): > > Income inequality is becoming a severe global problem. Not only in the US (whose inequality is worse than many latin american nations) but China and India have problems too. Now that austerity is pushed in Europe it is becoming a global problem of nearly all developed and rapidly developing problems. If you ridicule people who care about that issue all you do is make their demands more radical. Right now leftists will likely settle for higher progressive taxes and more regulation. In the future they may demand revolution and mass confiscation. Communism was born out of anger over inequality. People who will accept center left policies today will demand socialism tomorrow and communism the day after tomorrow. You can’t allay the anger and frustration others feel by ridiculing people. > > Start working on mandatory international basement standards for environmental and labor standards for one. We have 200 million people around the world who are _unemployed_ because power has been stolen from labor by the captains of industry. This situation will end in reform or it will end in fire. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/166 "2011-04-09T16:44:18Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Your ideas are a total failure. You don’t have any solutions except to continue the failed course of exploiting workers and preserving the plutocracy. But then that comes from how little you know about economics. > > Tariffs work. Free trade does not. Fine. Then prove it with something other than your bullshit rhetoric. This is Econ 101 stuff. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > We have 200 million people around the world who are unemployed because power has been stolen from labor by the captains of industry. This situation will end in reform or it will end in fire. Stolen? Workers would have NO power and NO jobs if it wasn’t for captains of industry creating them. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/167 "2011-04-10T13:43:47Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Fine. Then prove it with something other than your bullshit rhetoric. This is Econ 101 stuff. I have proven it numerous times with sound and logical facts. Repeatedly. Your responses have always been an endless flood of bullshit arguments that can all be summarized as: denial, denial and more _denial._ None of the cites I’ve posted were in error, and none of them have contradicted me. Your counter argument has always been, and always will be, blind denial. And here’s [another one out of M.I.T.](http://econ-www.mit.edu/files/6613) that explains why labor has lost power and influence in America. Of course, as usual, it requires a healthy dose of denial-of-reality to refute: > [@](#): > > Our study suggests that the rapid increase in U.S. imports of Chinese goods during the past two decades has had a substantial impact on employment and household incomes, benefits program enrollments, and transfer payments in local labor markets exposed to increased import competition. These effects extend far outside the manufacturing sector, and they imply substantial changes in worker and household welfare. > > … > > Growing import exposure spurs a substantial increase in transfer payments to individuals and households in the form of unemployment insurance benefits, disability benefits, income support payments, and in-kind medical benefits. > > … > > Nevertheless, transfers fall far short of offsetting the large decline in average household incomes found in local labor markets that are most heavily exposed to China trade. > > … > > Our estimates imply that the losses in economic efficiency from trade-induced increases in the usage of public benefits are, in the medium run, of the same order of magnitude as U.S. consumer gains from trade with China. Funny, how I, who did not graduate from MIT, also came up with the same conclusions. If all of this is Greek to you it basically means that our pursuit of free trade is unsustainable. When workers continue to lose power like this it will mean the demise of all nations involved. > [@](#): > > Stolen? Workers would have NO power and NO jobs if it wasn’t for captains of industry creating them. Yet another one of your insane, sycophantic arguments. Captains of industry would have no industry if there were no workers. If the captains of industry automated everything they oversaw there wouldn’t be anyone to buy what they’re selling. So now we get back to what I said about the consequences of workers losing power: without workers, who will be able to buy anything? Who would they have left to sell anything to? So what were you saying about “Econ 101” again? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/168 "2011-04-10T17:14:12Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > So what were you saying about “Econ 101” again? Maybe take the plastic off, flip through, look at some of the pictures, perhaps read the chapter on tariffs and international trade. In 2010 US imports from China were $ 364,943,800,000 [cite](http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2010) 364billion, sound like a lot. In 2010, US imports from all sources were 1,903,000,000,000 $1,903 billion. Meaning China accounts for only a fifth of US imports. Canada and Mexico represent the other two major trade partners. The trade deficit between US and China was $273billion (2010). The U.S. Census Bureau reported recently that the U.S. goods and services trade deficit fell from $695.9 billion in 2008 to $380.7 billion in 2009, a decline of $315.3 billion (45.3%). [cite](http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/international_picture_20100211) In 2010 total trade deficit was $495.7 billion. Wanna guess what makes up the difference? Oil. _“The U.S. non-oil goods trade deficit, which is dominated by manufactured products, fell from $387.8 billion in 2008 to $283.0 billion in 2009, a decline of 27%. China’s share of the U.S. non-oil goods trade deficit jumped from 68.6% in 2008 to 80.2% in 2009.”_ What drives real inflation, and eats in to realized income? Oil What gets mixed with vinegar to make a yummy dressing? Oil ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/169 "2011-04-10T17:33:11Z")
Uh oh, it seems China is intent of driving it’s currency down with the US dollar: \* "For the first time in seven years, China reported a quarterly trade deficit, as imports soared to an all-time high. Imports outweighed exports by $1.02 billion in the first three months of the year, China’s government said Sunday. That’s a stark contrast to the country’s $13.01 billion surplus in the same period a year ago."\*[CNN](http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/10/news/international/china_trade_deficit/index.htm?hpt=T2) _“Imports soared 32.6% from a year ago, to a record high of $400.66 billion.”_ Wait a second, didn’t **Le Jacquelope** claim that China raised tariffs? And wasn’t that supposed to prevent a trade deficit? Weren’t China’s tariffs proof that the US should have tariffs too? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/170 "2011-04-10T17:37:25Z")
Hey look at me, I can post random pdf’s too: _[S]ome trade specialists suggest that the surge of U.S. imports from China do not pose an additional threat to U.S. industries and workers because it merely represents a shift of investment and production from other Pacific Rim countries. China’s share of U.S. imports has been rising while those of other Pacific Rim nations have been falling or holding steady._ [China’s Trade with the United States and the World](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL31403.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/171 "2011-04-10T18:41:20Z")
You know, emacknight, while you’re entertaining fantasies of unemployed Americans taking vacations in Spain, the rest of us in America are pondering a wholesale rejection of your brand of capitalism. Less than 60% of Americans want that system anymore, compared with 75% a year ago. You continue to deny the upswell in opposition to your worldview - but that’s good. It means you’ll be unprepared when the citizens get sick and tired enough of your “arguments” that we decide to overturn the system. You just keep denying reality, 'k? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/172 "2011-04-10T19:05:28Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Less than 60% of Americans want that system anymore, compared with 75% a year ago. Still a majority, which to me suggests the politicians are doing exactly what the people want. Some how you present two conflicting numbers: 60% of Americans think free trade is the best system, while you also claim 86% want tariffs. I’ll admit to being in denial if you can you can at least present a clear picture of me to deny. You claim China’s economy has improved because it increased tariffs. But they decreased tariffs dramatically and are ramping up imports to the point they now have a trade deficit. The US may be the only country China has a trade surplus with. All the economic growth in China is heavily dependent on imported raw material as well as advanced machinery. If you didn’t have so many people on ignore you might see all the holes in your argument, and date you’re missing. Like how trips to Spain means the US can have a functioning airline industry, since it’s international flights that generates their profits. Or how nearly 50% of the US trade deficit is the result of oil imports. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/173 "2011-04-11T11:35:47Z")
I sincerely doubt the owners of capital will survive if this trend does not reverse, and soon: > **[Exchange Rates Graph (Canadian Dollar, US Dollar) - X-Rates](https://www.x-rates.com/graph/?from=CAD&to=USD&amount=1)** > > View a Canadian Dollar to US Dollar currency exchange rate graph. This currency graph will show you a 1 month CAD/USD history. If that situation illustrated above doesn’t improve, the owners of capital will be putting some skin in the game here soon. Worldwide. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/174 "2011-04-11T13:03:52Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You continue to deny the upswell in opposition to your worldview - but that’s good. It means you’ll be unprepared when the citizens get sick and tired enough of your “arguments” that we decide to overturn the system. > > You just keep denying reality, 'k? “Overturn the system”? What fantasy world are you living in? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/175 "2011-04-11T15:57:58Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Like Bryan Adams “rock” or Avril Lavign “rock”? Rush, obviously! ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656/176 "2011-04-11T16:07:11Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Like Bryan Adams “rock” or Avril Lavign “rock”? Nickelback obviously. Nobody rocks like Nickelback. And when the US imposes tariffs on China, that’s all you’ll hear on your $1500 iPods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-so-much-power-influence-left-labor-and-gone-to-capital-at-least-in-the-us/575656.md?page=8)