# Why has the baldness trait persisted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 7, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574 "2003-05-07T02:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![curly\_chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@curly\_chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curly_chick)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/21 "2003-05-07T08:15:48Z")
Genes which are deleterous to the progeny are eventually phased out. So in very basic terms, if you were a bacteria with no resistance to penecillin, the next generation can only be those which are not killed by penecillin, those who have the genes for resistance Being bald does not kill you. Your question is about as arbitrary as why the gene for (insert common eye colour here) eyes still persists. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/22 "2003-05-07T10:05:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by curly chick \* > \*\*Genes which are deleterous to the progeny are eventually phased out. > > So in very basic terms, if you were a bacteria with no resistance to penecillin, the next generation can only be those which are not killed by penecillin, those who have the genes for resistance > Being bald does not kill you.\*\* That is something of an oversimplifcation; for example, a mutated gene that results in sterility might not kill the individual, but it prevents the individual from _having_ progeny, so it would be phased out. IF baldness was evident before breeding occurred, AND IF baldness was universally shunned, then it would have phased itself out, but it isn’t and it isn’t, so it hasn’t. **Rusalka** is arguing from false premises. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/23 "2003-05-07T14:45:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rusalka \* > **the mere fact that bald men will have fewer chances for procreation, should, in the long run spell the end of the baldness trait.** This isn’t a valid conclusion. Any men who procreate and then go bald would pass on the gene (if there is one). It would be a valid argument that youthful baldness could be evolved out, if it was actually such a repulsive trait as to prevent procreation, but I don’t believe that’s true either. ---
**Author:** ![racekarl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6bbea6/32.png) [@racekarl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racekarl)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/24 "2003-05-07T15:27:43Z")
**Rusalka** I think you have made several bad assumptions and that is what is causing your confusion: First: > [@](#): > > “hair falling out” could be interpreted as a sign of sickness, or non-fitness. Sociologists constantly talk about men’s ideas of female attractiveness evolving from signs of fitness and youth, so why doesn’t the same apply in the case of baldness? Because as others have mentioned, baldness IS NOT generally a sign of sickness or non-fitness. In fact, given that it is often tied to elevated testosterone levels, one could argue that the exact opposite is true. Given their possibly greater physical stength and sexual virility, young men destined to go bald may have been considered as MORE fit mates. Second: > [@](#): > > Beauty has nothing to do with whether or not you can bear many children, yet men select for certain “beauty” and “youth” traits according to sociologists. Here I think you are off base as well. The traits that men consider beautiful have _everything_ to do with their fitness as a mate. Clear skin, symetrical features, proper waist to hip ratio are all indicitive of good health and reproductive fitness and are all also generally considered beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![Hern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hern)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/25 "2003-05-07T15:47:51Z")
This really just boils down to the point that baldness **might** make people less attractive but certainly does not make them completely untenable as mates. Bald men clearly do still procreate and have done so quite happily throughout the ages. It **may** be tougher for them to find a partner but in itself baldness doesn’t prevent reproduction. Speaking as someone who has (in the past) intentionally shaved his head, I can assure you that it didn’t do me any harm. I guess my sparkling personality must have carried the day… ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/26 "2003-05-07T17:27:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Foolonthehill \* > \*\*Isn’t Male Pattern Baldness carried thru the mother’s genes? (Like some forms of color-blindness) \*\* Nope. That’s a common belief - we’ve all heard that it comes from your mother’s father - but it’s false. I payed close attention in my genetics class the day we discussed it. Not because I needed the information, you understand. It was for, uh, a friend. Yeah, that’s the ticket. Anyway, baldness is a simple autosomal trait, meaning the inheritance pattern has nothing to do with gender. But, it’s very sensitive to testosterone, so it’s dominant in males, but recessive in females. And even when females have two copies of the gene, it’s expressed much less severely. They tend to get just thin hair rather than full-on baldness. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/27 "2003-05-07T17:42:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lizard \* > \*\*Well, we could make the same arguments about fat-assed women. My sister swelled up to the size of a cow after she got married, but my brother -in-law still didn’t mind impregnating her. \*\* [note to self] Continue drinking water at work, as it does not make monitors and keyboards sticky. [/note to self] ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/28 "2003-05-07T18:12:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Beauty has nothing to do with whether or not you can bear many children, yet men select for certain “beauty” and “youth” traits according to sociologists. To be fair, there are some examples of “attractive” traits in humans which do not directly relate to fitness. Many men, for example, find long hair attractive in women (the reverse can also be true, but I _think_ it’s not as common). But what purpose does long hair serve? From all I understand, it’s just a human equivalent to a peacock’s tail: Men prefer long-haired women, because that means that they’ll have more long-haired daughters, who will in turn attract mates more easily, because men prefer long-haired women. But this still isn’t relevant to the discussion at hand, for two reasons that you’re probably sick of hearing about by now. First, in most men who go bald, it occurs after they’ve already done most or all of their reproducing. Yes, a man _can_ father children at any age, but most _don’t_. There’s a reason that Viagra is so popular, you know. And even in those cases where a man does have children at a great age, his mate may have selected him years before. Very few men are already going noticeably bald by the time of their wedding. This is in contrast to long hair or the other traits found attractive in women, most of which are obvious from puberty or earlier. Second, baldness isn’t nearly as big of a turnoff as you’re thinking. The claim that it’s “universally” considered unattractive is quite blatently false, as proven by the women so far on this thread who have stated that they actually prefer bald men. Even if some women do prefer men with a full head of hair, that’s at least partially, if not totally, offset by women with the opposite preference. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/29 "2003-05-07T18:19:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bruce\_Daddy \* > \*\*[note to self] Continue drinking water at work, as it does not make monitors and keyboards sticky. [/note to self] \*\* Thanks **Bruce\_Daddy**. It’s nce to be appreciated. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/30 "2003-05-07T19:05:37Z")
Most men have hair when men and women are young, and older women dont care if men are bald. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/31 "2003-05-07T19:24:05Z")
The answer everyone is overlooking is that not everything has to do with evolution. The reaction to baldness is social conditioning, not an evolutionary trait. Twenty years ago, no one shaved their heads. Now it’s becoming common as hair styles change. Even men who aren’t bald often shave their head to emulate someone like Michael Jordan. It isn’t that outlandish to think that a shaven head becomes the norm (it has been in various societies at various points in history). And then, **Rusalka** , you’ll be asking why men have hair, since most women find it unattractive. There is nothing more variable then length of hair. Trying to look for an evolutionary explanation is like looking for an evolutionary explanation for hemlines. ---
**Author:** ![Rusalka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecd19e/32.png) [@Rusalka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rusalka)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/32 "2003-05-11T06:47:02Z")
If baldness is no big deal, then why do men worry about it? Why the obsession with baldness cures? Why do some groups of people have very low incidences of male-pattern baldness? (i.e., people of native american extraction) ---
**Author:** ![The\_MacDairmuid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_MacDairmuid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_MacDairmuid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/33 "2003-05-11T08:17:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rusalka \* > > \ > > **All else being equal, do you know _any_ woman who would pick a bald man over one with hair?** > > \ Yes. Three in fact. ---
**Author:** ![joe\_iguana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2acd7d/32.png) [@joe\_iguana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joe_iguana)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/34 "2003-05-11T08:18:01Z")
well, if you really want to ask the baldness issue and why people obssess with it…that is merely just asking about modern man and his idiocy of using other people’s insecurities to make a dollar. It has NOTHING to do with biological evolution (social evolution however is a WHOLE other ballgame). I mean, c’mon, this same exact arguments could be made replacing the words “baldness” with “penis size”. Think about it…there’s lots of products and ads for a bigger penis out there…is there a biological reason for differing sizes? \*I vote for the size of the penis being dependant on the size of animals one had to fight off for food in the wild …hehe. So stop fretting about the baldness thing…I got the traits to never worry about that one…scottish cherokee…the hairest dang Injun you’ll ever meet. lol. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/35 "2003-05-11T10:26:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rusalka \* > Bigger and taller, and beardednes are still desirable traits today. Male pattern baldness is not. Why? You keep assuming what you think is what everybody thinks. There are plenty of women who dislike beards everywhere but I have found out this to be especially true in China. The assumption that women prefer non-bald guys does not wash either. My sister married a _very_ bald and ugly guy possibly based on the fact that he is (a) very charming, (b) very intelligent and © very successful. I believe most women would go for a guy like that over a jerk with a full head of hair, any time. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/36 "2003-05-11T14:49:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rusalka \* > \*\*If baldness is no big deal, then why do men worry about it? Why the obsession with baldness cures? Why do some groups of people have very low incidences of male-pattern baldness? (i.e., people of native american extraction) \*\* Society and bigoted people like you that think balding people are inferior make balding people worry about it. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/37 "2003-05-11T15:22:04Z")
Let’s face it: There are plenty of plain, unattractive, and flat-out ugly men and women today–and statistically perhaps more in the past. If we accept your (tenditious) argument that baldness has always been unfavorable, you also have to consider that there were/are so many people with unattractive physical characteristics that they simply could not be selective. A fat ugly frumpy young woman is in no position to hold out for a hunk. ---
**Author:** ![bradwalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@bradwalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bradwalt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/38 "2003-05-11T16:56:57Z")
Give me a big enough marketing budget, and I can turn Baldness into an attractive American characteristc within 10 years! Who knew body piercing would become a trait? I’ll have the next generation of kids shaving their heads, and we’ll see an explosion of Hair Removal Salons. It’s called FASHION, and NOT wanting to look/act like our parents! ---
**Author:** ![Rusalka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecd19e/32.png) [@Rusalka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rusalka)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/39 "2003-05-11T17:21:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Epimetheus \* > \*\*Society and bigoted people like you that think balding people are inferior make balding people worry about it. \*\* Epimetheus, that ad hominem attack was really uncalled for. I stressed repeatedly that baldness doesn’t bother me personally, but that I see it viewed negatively in society at large. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Goo\_Fee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Doctor\_Goo\_Fee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Goo_Fee)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574/40 "2003-05-11T17:31:42Z")
“Why has the baldness trait persisted?” That’s simple. Because bald men sometimes have money, fame or power. Therefore, they still reproduce. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-baldness-trait-persisted/173574.md?page=3)