# Why has the 'Free Market' doctrine not been as successful in the Middle East as elsewhere? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899 "2013-08-22T19:12:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/1 "2013-08-22T19:12:48Z")
Understanding the success of the Gulf States due to _some_ application of free market principles in relation of moving of capital and investment, I was wondering why this area of the World hasn’t been as receptive to the wave of free market ideology the way the rest of the world has been for the last 30 years, and how it took the invasion of Iraq and the direct attempt by the US to implement it to try and get it to take root (Which it hasn’t) Is it because of cultural and society that it hasn’t been successful yet? Or is it due to the perception of US hegemony which makes it look unattractive, or something else? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/2 "2013-08-22T19:22:26Z")
Fundamentalism. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/3 "2013-08-22T19:43:11Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/4 "2013-08-22T19:45:23Z")
The “free market model” is disastrous in most of the world. It only looks good if you are in one of the countries doing the exploiting, not if you are one of the exploited. > [@](#): > > it took the invasion of Iraq and the direct attempt by the US to implement it to try and get it to take root (Which it hasn’t) Americans have a hard time understanding that slaughtering people and devastating their homeland so you can exploit them does not make you popular with them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/5 "2013-08-22T19:54:00Z")
The free market model doesn’t work very well when the vast majority of wealth in society is generated by pumping oil out of the ground. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/6 "2013-08-22T20:07:32Z")
Which country in particular are you referring to? I can’t think of a single “free market” country in the Middle East, but of course I’m not entirely up to date on these things. In general, there aren’t as many free markets as people claim. Like communism, it’s mostly a label used to legitimize whatever corrupt kangaroo government gets set up after a regime change somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/7 "2013-08-22T20:10:31Z")
After WW2 middle east countries generally tried Arab socialism such as Baathism or Nasserism. This was accompanied by political repression and the only effective oppositions were religous based since that was too ingrained in the population to be stamped out. Thus in most middle east countries there are secular socialists and religious fundamentalism. Both of these ideologies are anti-free market. The only middle east countries that are really free market are Quatar and the UAE. Both their economies are doing very well. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/8 "2013-08-22T20:28:09Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The only middle east countries that are really free market are Quatar and the UAE. Both their economies are doing very well. Qatar is not a free market country. The few hundred thousand “citizens” are all wealthy, receiving a monthly share of the nationalized oil revenues, paid utilities, and free housing. They then truck in 3 million or so Pakistanis, Filipinos, etc, to do their dirty work for them and to treat like peasants. Furthermore, they are ruled by a hereditary monarchy with no independent legislature. I’m not an expert, but I think UAE is similar. These countries are well off because they have a single abundant and valuable resource they can export. When the oil runs out, free market or not, they’re going back to being dirt poor pearl divers, camel herders and fishermen. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/9 "2013-08-22T20:47:45Z")
I think the OP is asking why free market thinking has not been more successfully accepted in the Gulf States. I don’t think he’s stating that they implemented free market policies and asking why they aren’t working. He’s saying, if I can paraphrase: They dabbled in free market thinking a bit in setting policies, but didn’t go very far. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/10 "2013-08-22T20:50:07Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Which country in particular are you referring to? I can’t think of a single “free market” country in the Middle East, but of course I’m not entirely up to date on these things. Israel. At least freer market than others. Still very regulated and lots of governmental subsidies. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/11 "2013-08-23T15:07:35Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Qatar is not a free market country. The few hundred thousand “citizens” are all wealthy, receiving a monthly share of the nationalized oil revenues, paid utilities, and free housing. They then truck in 3 million or so Pakistanis, Filipinos, etc, to do their dirty work for them and to treat like peasants. Furthermore, they are ruled by a hereditary monarchy with no independent legislature. > > I’m not an expert, but I think UAE is similar. These countries are well off because they have a single abundant and valuable resource they can export. When the oil runs out, free market or not, they’re going back to being dirt poor pearl divers, camel herders and fishermen. Free market does not mean democratic or that it treats foreigners like “citizens”. Quatar has the rule of law and respects private property. It has very low levels of corruption, low taxes, and a business friendly regulatory environment. Here is the Heritage foundation’s profile of Quatar’s [economy](http://www.heritage.org/index/country/qatar). The same is mostly true of [UAE](http://www.heritage.org/index/country/unitedarabemirates). Oil wealth does not translate into a growing economy for most countries. Oil rich countries tend to grow slower than other countries because of higher levels of [corruption](http://www.un.org/esa/sustdev/sdissues/energy/op/qatarSymposium/13Presentation_Karl.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/12 "2013-08-23T15:10:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Israel. At least freer market than others. Still very regulated and lots of governmental subsidies. Well, of course, in any discussion of the MENA, Israel is always an outlier. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/13 "2013-08-23T15:36:19Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Fundamentalism. That’s silly. There have been plenty of secular gov’ts in the Middle East. None have been particularly more open to captialism then the others. I think the reason is pretty clearly oil wealth. It’s pretty hard to have a free market economy when 55% of your GDP is based on exploiting a single, localized, natural resource. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/14 "2013-08-23T15:43:06Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > That’s silly. There have been plenty of secular gov’ts in the Middle East. None have been particularly more open to captialism then the others. > > I think the reason is pretty clearly oil wealth. It’s pretty hard to have a free market economy when 55% of your GDP is based on exploiting a single, localized, natural resource. But not every country in the MENA **has** oil wealth. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/15 "2013-08-23T15:54:09Z")
[Islamic banking](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking) > [@](#): > > Islamic banking (Arabic: المصرفية الإسلامية‎) is banking or banking activity that is consistent with the principles of sharia and its practical application through the development of Islamic economics. As such, a more correct term for ‘Islamic banking’ is ‘Sharia compliant finance’.[1] Sharia prohibits the fixed or floating payment or acceptance of specific interest or fees (known as riba, or usury) for loans of money. Investing in businesses that provide goods or services considered contrary to Islamic principles is also haraam (“sinful and prohibited”). I’m pretty sure that has a lot to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/16 "2013-08-23T16:27:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But not every country in the MENA **has** oil wealth. Not every country, but most of them do (or did, Egypt and Syria both peaked in the 90’s, a fact probably not coincidentally related to the fact that they’re both currently suffering revolutions). Other then that, I think Jordan, Lebanon, Yemen and Morocco and Tunisia are the only countries where petro-chemicals don’t make up (or didn’t make up until recently) a major chunk of the economy. Morocco and Tunisia have fairily liberal economies, Yemen doesn’t really have a functioning state, Lebanon was a client state of Syria. Jordan is the only real outlier. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/17 "2013-08-23T16:33:14Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > [Islamic banking](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking) > > I’m pretty sure that has a lot to do with it. !!! It is as if St. Thomas Aquinas’ condemnation of usury, defined as charging any interest at all on a loan, were still accepted throughout Christendom. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/18 "2013-08-23T16:46:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > !!! It is as if St. Thomas Aquinas’ condemnation of usury, defined as charging any interest at all on a loan, were still accepted throughout Christendom. My Egyptian car pool friend tells me that in Egypt, there are no mortgages. When you buy your house, you _buy_ your house. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/19 "2013-08-23T16:54:36Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > My Egyptian car pool friend tells me that in Egypt, there are no mortgages. When you buy your house, you _buy_ your house. Egypt has modern, western style banks (or did, not sure what the situation is now, post-Arab Spring). If it’s difficult finding mortgages, I suspect it has more to do with the fact that no one wants to loan money in a country where half the population makes under 3$ a day then any religious prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899/20 "2013-08-23T17:28:58Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > [Islamic banking](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking) > > I’m pretty sure that has a lot to do with it. I don’t see how Islamic Banking could be done in a way which doesn’t conflict with the main tenets of free market capitalism, in fact, I’m pretty sure they conjured up financial instruments to do that. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-free-market-doctrine-not-been-as-successful-in-the-middle-east-as-elsewhere/666899.md?page=2)