# Why has the government lost prestige since 1964? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937 "2012-05-24T11:17:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/41 "2012-05-24T17:27:05Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > That would not have been successful if government programs were improving the lives of most Americans as they did during the New Deal. The programs would have been successful, if the Vietnam War had not drained the funding. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/42 "2012-05-24T17:36:26Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > If the government had continued to be as receptive to the needs and desires of the white majority as it had been during the 1930s then the US would be a backwards, racist, intolerable cesspool of crime and violence. I mean, even more so. In 1960, which is to say before any of the civil rights legislation was signed, the over all crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants was 1,887.2. The rate of violent crime was 160.9. In 2010 the corresponding numbers were 3,345.5 and 403.6. > **[United States Crime Rates 1960 t0 2019](https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm)** > > United States crime statistics, United States , United States rape, United States murder, United States property crime, United States crime index, United States violent crime, violent crime in State, United States burglary, United States vehicle... The overall crime rate peeked during 1980 at 5,950.0. The rate of violent crime peeked at 1991 at 758.1. The decline since can be largely attributed to the tripling of the prison population. [http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf](http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf) The tripling of the prison population and the resulting decline in crime is something we need to thank the Republicans for. Punishment works. Social reform and social welfare spending were tried during the 1960s when the crime rate doubled. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/43 "2012-05-24T17:42:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The programs would have been successful, if the Vietnam War had not drained the funding. If you are talking about middle class entitlements, I agree with you. The expansion of the welfare system encouraged hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of the working poor to become unemployable welfare dependents. Many supplemented their welfare checks with the gains from criminal activity. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/44 "2012-05-24T17:47:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, just look at the things that our, ahem, hypothetical 1980’s racist wanted: segregated schools, legally discriminating against blacks for housing and no program to redress systemic employment discrimination. I guess we could’ve instituted apartheid to make such, er, hypothetical-1980’s-racists happy. What he wanted was a government that did not force him to make sacrifices affluent liberals were able to avoid. Although they advocated school integration “in principle” they seldom sent their children to predominantly black public schools. Because he could not afford to live far away from high crime slums like they could he wanted effective law enforcement. That means putting more criminals in prison, keeping them there longer, and making incarceration harsh enough to be a deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/45 "2012-05-24T17:48:54Z")
The crime rate probably doubled in the 1960s because a whole lot of people born post WWII were becoming teenagers and angry young men. It’s probably dropping now because these angry young men are now grouchy old men. I don’t think the incarceration rate proves anything. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/46 "2012-05-24T17:54:47Z")
[QUOTE=Flyer;15096983] How else to explain the belief that children belong to the state, not to their families? (A belief that shows itself in the passage of helmet laws, booster seat laws, etc.). [/QUOTE] Wait, so since children belong to the family rather than the government the family should be able to dispose of them as they see fit? When then all this cry from the right on abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/47 "2012-05-24T18:13:45Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > And–how else to explain the fact that not one poster in the thread–the vast majority of whom are clearly liberal–has seen fit to bring up the well-known, well-documented fact that **the government has at times deliberately harmed people and lied about it**. You’re right. None of us liberals mentioned any of that. Except for those of us that did. > [@](#): > > Following 1964, there was increasing division over the Vietnam War, disillusion that the government was neither effective nor correct in its handling of racial issues and poverty programs. Then news of Nixon’s behavior, (highlighted by, but not limited to the Watergate scandal), the withdrawal from Vietnam with the later fall of South Vietnam, the (perceived) inability of Nixon, Ford, or Carter to deal effectively with inflation and then stagflation, the rise of the conspiracy movement regarding JFK’s assassination that reinforced the notions of corruption or incompetence in government, (reflected in the “moon landing hoax” CTs, etc.). The nadir, of course, coincided with the Iranian takeover of the U.S. embassy, the failure of the rescue mission, and a general perception that Carter was not capable of being an effective executive. > [@](#): > > Vietnam Cynicism- the government was forcibly taking our young men and sending them off to combat for a war that we began to think wasn’t worth fighting over > [@](#): > > My guess? The assassination of JFK, RFK and MLK followed by losing a war in Vietnam (including the fact that the government was lying to the public about it) followed by the crimes and misdemeanors of Richard Nixon. > > Or put more simply: the American people stopped trusting the government when the government started lying to them. > [@](#): > > Personally, I would have guessed it had a lot to due with the practices of the Johnson and Nixon administrations. Yeah, you definitely found a den of government apologists here. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/48 "2012-05-24T18:14:12Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > The crime rate probably doubled in the 1960s because a whole lot of people born post WWII were becoming teenagers and angry young men. It’s probably dropping now because these angry young men are now grouchy old men. I don’t think the incarceration rate proves anything. You think that because you dislike the idea of inflicting punishment on poor men who break the law. I like that idea. What cannot be denied is that when poverty declined during the 1960s and the prison population declined the crime rate doubled. Since 1980 poverty has become more severe, the prison population has tripled, and the crime rate has declined by one third. In addition in Freakonomics Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner present the plausible argument that the Roe v. Wade decision of 1973 contributed to the decline in violent crime after 1991. Their argument is that females who are most likely to have abortions are unmarried, poorly educated, poor, (and not very intellgent). These are the same kind of females who are most likely to have boy babies who grow up to become violent street criminals. A potential mugger who was aborted in 1974 would have been 18 in 1992. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/49 "2012-05-24T18:20:23Z")
Holy shit. Poverty prevents crime. So LBJ, you declared war on poverty? BAD BOY, LBJ! ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/50 "2012-05-24T18:21:17Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > You think that because you dislike the idea of inflicting punishment on poor men who break the law… How do you know what I think? You grabbed a couple of statistics and made an inference about their correlation without any proof. I made my own inferences without any proof to show that cause and effect can come from many places: that’s all. You can’t start with a theory and then cherry-pick statistics to support it. You won’t win that game here. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/51 "2012-05-24T18:32:12Z")
Look how the crime [rates](http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/briefs/b29/b29-eng.shtml#LinkTarget_562) for Canada and the US follow a similar curve for 1981 - 2001. Now scroll down a bit from [here](http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/briefs/b29/b29-eng.shtml#LinkTarget_593) and see that the incarceration rate in Canada has remained the same over this period, while the US incarceration rate has increased linearly. I submit that there is no apparent direct correlation between rates of crime and incarceration rates. Strange, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/52 "2012-05-24T18:39:15Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Look how the crime [rates](http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/briefs/b29/b29-eng.shtml#LinkTarget_562) for Canada and the US follow a similar curve for 1981 - 2001. > > Now scroll down a bit from [here](http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/briefs/b29/b29-eng.shtml#LinkTarget_593) and see that the incarceration rate in Canada has remained the same over this period, while the US incarceration rate has increased linearly. > > I submit that there is no apparent direct correlation between rates of crime and incarceration rates. Strange, isn’t it? Your chart indicates that the rate of crime in Canada was approximately 500 crimes lower per 100,000 citizens than in the US in 1981 and now it is slightly higher. The trends are in the same directions but the decrease in crime in the US was much sharper. This could be because of higher imprisonment rates, it is too hard to tell, but it tells a different story than what you are. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/53 "2012-05-24T18:53:35Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Your chart indicates that the rate of crime in Canada was approximately 500 crimes lower per 100,000 citizens than in the US in 1981 and now it is slightly higher. The trends are in the same directions but the decrease in crime in the US was much sharper. This could be because of higher imprisonment rates, it is too hard to tell, but it tells a different story than what you are. Are you serious? You can’t see that the crime rates are following a similar curve while the incarceration rates are widely different? The US has 7 times the incarceration rate and you’re squabbling over a few percentage points difference in crime rates over the decades? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/54 "2012-05-24T18:56:53Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Look how the crime [rates](http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/briefs/b29/b29-eng.shtml#LinkTarget_562) for Canada and the US follow a similar curve for 1981 - 2001. > > Now scroll down a bit from [here](http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/briefs/b29/b29-eng.shtml#LinkTarget_593) and see that the incarceration rate in Canada has remained the same over this period, while the US incarceration rate has increased linearly. > > I submit that there is no apparent direct correlation between rates of crime and incarceration rates. Strange, isn’t it? When reading the essay this attracted my attention: “Some of the findings are a bit paradoxical: the trends examined here indicate that crime and incarceration trends after 1991 became de-coupled in the United States, which experienced the largest drop in crime rates of the three countries during the last ten years, but had by far the most rapid increases in the adult prison population.” > **[Research at Correctional Service Canada - Canada.ca](https://www.canada.ca/en/correctional-service/corporate/research.html)** > > Learn how CSC research helps offenders work towards successful reintegration and assists staff in identifying effective strategies to work safely and efficiently. I do not see any paradox here at all. The crime rate in the United States dropped _because_ of “the rapid increases in the adult prison population.” In general the rate of violent crime declined in the United States after 1991 while it remained fairly constant in Canada and the UK, where the prison population also remained fairly constant. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/55 "2012-05-24T19:02:44Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > You can’t start with a theory and then cherry-pick statistics to support it. You won’t win that game here. You can if you’re also cherry picking history. The OP seems to be determined to discuss issues of government trust and prestige while entirely ignoring Watergate and Vietnam even though the Atlantic charts show public trust of the government cratered in the late '60s and bottomed out under Ford. And I think he also wants to discuss a decline in trust since September 11th without mentioning Iraq, the economy and the financial crisis. If you leave out all of that stuff, then yes, I am sure we can find a way to blame it on the blacks. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/56 "2012-05-24T19:09:30Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was signed July 2, 1964. Sixteen days later a black ghetto riot began in Harlem. > > The Voting Rights Act was signed August 6, 1965. Five days later the Watts riot began. Joe Blow signed my chain letter. Sixteen days later he won the lottery. Richard Roe did not sign my chain letter. Five days later he fell and broke his leg. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The only reason I did not post the Gallup survey that began to track trust in the government was because I could not find it. Your ineptitude at research does not constitute my educational burden. > [@](#): > > I would like a serious discussion. Objection: Assertion of fact not in evidence. > [@](#): > > I believe that it is legitimate to inquire into why the government has lost prestige, Correct. > [@](#): > > and that all suggestions should merit respectful consideration. Incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/57 "2012-05-24T19:13:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You can if you’re also cherry picking history. The OP seems to be determined to discuss issues of government trust and prestige while entirely ignoring Watergate and Vietnam even though the Atlantic charts show public trust of the government cratered in the late '60s and bottomed out under Ford. And I think he also wants to discuss a decline in trust since September 11th without mentioning Iraq, the economy and the financial crisis. If you leave out all of that stuff, then yes, I am sure we can find a way to blame it on the blacks. Watergate and Vietnam ended long ago. Watergate was clearly a Republican problem. By the time it ended Vietnam was clearly a Republican war, that most Americans thought at the time had always been a mistake. The decline in the prestige of the government has benefited the Republicans. It is counter intuitive that problems for which they were justly blamed at the time have given them enduring political benefits. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/58 "2012-05-24T19:14:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I am sure we can find a way to blame it on the blacks. Actually, I think that the argument is that blacks are naturally just helpless savages and we should really blame the left for not properly _dealing with_ them and instituting a nice policy of _apart…ness_. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/59 "2012-05-24T19:14:58Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Are you serious? You can’t see that the crime rates are following a similar curve while the incarceration rates are widely different? The US has 7 times the incarceration rate and you’re squabbling over a few percentage points difference in crime rates over the decades? A few percentage points? According to the chart Canada’s crime rate has dropped around 400 crimes per 100,000 residents. America’s has fallen about 1,000 crimes per 100,000 residents. That means that Canada has approximately 136,000 fewer crimes per year while America has approximately 3 million less crimes per year. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/60 "2012-05-24T19:16:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s like asked David Icke who’s at fault for something. No matter what it is, he’s always going to blame the lizard people. I await **New Deal Democrat** ’s thoughtful commentary on this theory. After all, he has told us that all perspectives merit respectful consideration… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937.md?page=4)