# Why has the government lost prestige since 1964? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937 "2012-05-24T11:17:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/141 "2012-05-26T20:50:46Z")
I think a lot of it has to do with: the Kennedy assination The Vietnam War Watergate The failure of Operation: Eagle Claw (Iran hostage rescue attempt) the S&L banking crisis the Iran Contra fiasco The Bill Clinton Blowjob Show The Dot com crash The Bush/Gore election fiasco 9/11 Hurricane Katrina Enron Sarah Palin The Great Recession And this is just off the top of my head. URL=“[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_federal\_political\_scandals\_in\_the\_United\_States#1981.E2.80.931989\_Ronald\_Reagan\_Administration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States#1981.E2.80.931989_Ronald_Reagan_Administration)”]You can actually find a more complete list here Look, when you do something stupid over and over again and it is shown over and over again on 24 hour news and the internet, people tend to loose respect for you. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/142 "2012-05-26T21:20:55Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Nor have I seen any evidence that social reform and social welfare spending reduces the crime rate. Then you are misplacing your priorities. The point of those things should be to reduce the **poverty** rate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/143 "2012-05-26T21:22:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Look, when you do something stupid over and over again and it is shown over and over again on 24 hour news and the internet, people tend to loose respect for you. But, the “you” in this case is not “the government.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/144 "2012-05-26T21:23:21Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Also, in Norway there is more of a safety net. Let us learn from **that,** then. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/145 "2012-05-26T21:41:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let us learn from **that,** then. I favor social democracy. Nevertheless, it only seems to work in countries where nearly everyone is white. When the War on Poverty, declared by Lyndon Johnson in 1964, made welfare benefits more generous and easier to qualify for hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of blacks quit low paying jobs and went on welfare, even though unemployment rates were declining. Whites are less likely to behave that way. Also, white blue collar workers tend to oppose domestic spending programs that would benefit them - like a single payer health plan - if the programs would also help blacks. The political center in the United States is to the right of where it is in Europe. This is because the American population is more heterogeneous than populations in Europe. Loyalties of class are usually less powerful than loyalties of race, nation, and ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/146 "2012-05-26T22:26:51Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The political center in the United States is to the right of where it is in Europe. This is because the American population is more heterogeneous than populations in Europe. No, it’s because Americans are taught from birth to be religious and to be ideological psychopaths. Americans are taught to regard everyone else as nothing more than an enemy to be destroyed or a resource to be exploited. Outside of their immediate family, most Americans have no compassion or loyalty to each other; they aren’t any more generous to people within their own “race” than anyone else, regardless of your racial fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/147 "2012-05-26T22:40:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s because Americans are taught from birth to be religious and to be ideological psychopaths. Now now Der, we’ve already got this thread chock full of silly bigoted comments hinting at how bad blacks are, we don’t also require silly bigoted comments about how evil Americans are. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/148 "2012-05-26T22:56:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Now now Der, we’ve already got this thread chock full of silly bigoted comments hinting at how bad blacks are, we don’t also require silly bigoted comments about how evil Americans are. It’s not silly, it’s the truth. Americans care very little about the welfare of other Americans. “What’s in it for me” and “I’ve got mine, screw you” are overwhelmingly common attitudes. Americans _hate_ helping each other, and are generally willing to suffer themselves in order to avoid doing so. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/149 "2012-05-26T23:15:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Now now Der, we’ve already got this thread chock full of silly bigoted comments hinting at how bad blacks are, we don’t also require silly bigoted comments about how evil Americans are. I usually document my factual assertions. Der Trihs did not. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/150 "2012-05-26T23:19:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > No, it’s because Americans are taught from birth to be religious and to be ideological psychopaths. > > Now now Der, we’ve already got this thread chock full of silly bigoted comments hinting at how bad blacks are, we don’t also require silly bigoted comments about how evil Americans are. On the contrary, I welcome this sort of comment. It demonstrates pretty well that the topic of this thread is nothing more than an attempt to proselytize the informed by people who need to hold up their beliefs as Gospel, regardless of facts and logic. Regardless whether we are watching New Deal Democrat moving goalposts, claiming that he has accepted positions that do not appear in his posts, or trying to cast a racist rant as a discussion of political attitudes in the U.S. or Der Trihs engaging in one more fundy atheist rant, it is pretty easy to see that no serious discussion with a True Believer will ever succeed as a rational discussion. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/151 "2012-05-26T23:35:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, the “you” in this case is not “the government.” How do you figure that? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/152 "2012-05-26T23:44:54Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > On the contrary, I welcome this sort of comment. It demonstrates pretty well that the topic of this thread is nothing more than an attempt to proselytize the informed by people who need to hold up their beliefs as Gospel, regardless of facts and logic. > Regardless whether we are watching New Deal Democrat moving goalposts, claiming that he has accepted positions that do not appear in his posts, or trying to cast a racist rant as a discussion of political attitudes in the U.S. or Der Trihs engaging in one more fundy atheist rant, it is pretty easy to see that no serious discussion with a True Believer will ever succeed as a rational discussion. I have strong opinions, but I am not an ideologue. I love facts that can be documented, and logical reasoning. What positions do I claim to have accepted which do not appear in my previous posts? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/153 "2012-05-26T23:53:04Z")
I think it is Hollywood’s fault. They started letting those black listed artists work again in the early sixties. They used to make movies that made you proud to be an American starring John Wayne. Now we have ‘actors’ like George Clooney and Matt Daemon who just hate America. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/154 "2012-05-27T00:10:58Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > What positions do I claim to have accepted which do not appear in my previous posts? 😕 Your claim to have accepted the fact that an aging population contributed to a drop in crime came only after several days of denying it and only after you accidentally posted information supporting it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/155 "2012-05-27T00:19:47Z")
> [@David42](#): > > While I’m not buying \*\*New Deal Democrat’s \*\* assertion that it is only the incarceration rate that it is lowering the crime rate, this assertion is far far worse. > > The idea that higher incarceration rates couldn’t possibly have anything to do with a lesser crime rate is just plain silly. > > It’s called prevention. A little thing called recidivism. Longer sentences might reduce some crime. An overwhelming increase in incarceration due to harsher laws and penalties rather than keeping felons in prison longer does little more than create more career criminals by placing more at risk youths into situations where their only role models are criminal and they are hindered from finding work when released. Regardless of that argument, the aging population argument is only “far worse” if you can explain why Canada experienced a similar drop in crime rates without the exploding incarceration rates. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/156 "2012-05-27T00:29:53Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > A major reason for the decline in the prestige of the government since 1964 is that most of the white majority stopped seeing the government as a organization that advanced their interests. Instead they saw the government as an organization that advanced the interests of blacks at their expense. The only people who might see the government “advancing” blacks at “their expense” are lower income whites. Yet the loss of respect for the government cuts acrosss all social and economic boundaries. You are singling out one (rather small) sectrion of the society who has perception problems and trying to claim the attitudes of the overwhelming majority of the population is the same as that small segment. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > When the War on Poverty, declared by Lyndon Johnson in 1964, made welfare benefits more generous and easier to qualify for hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of blacks quit low paying jobs and went on welfare, even though unemployment rates were declining. Whites are less likely to behave that way. Do you have anything resembling a reference to support this silly claim? (Fox News, perhaps?) Please show that a significant number of blacks actually quit jobs to go on welfare, then provide evidence that whites did not do the same thing at the same rates. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Also, white blue collar workers tend to oppose domestic spending programs that would benefit them - like a single payer health plan - if the programs would also help blacks. So, you are saying that these people are willing to harm themselves solely to prevent a hypothetical benefit to people with whom they are not even in contact, just based on skin color? Are we supposed to feel sorry for such people? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/157 "2012-05-27T02:20:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Regardless of that argument, the aging population argument is only “far worse” if you can explain why Canada experienced a similar drop in crime rates without the exploding incarceration rates. I already posted this. Here it is again: > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Because the dates begin in 1981 and end in 2001 they do not show the tripling of the U.S. crime rate from 1960 to 1980. Nor do they show the continuing decline after 2001. > > [United States Crime Rates 1960 t0 2019](http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm) > > Most Americans have lost ground economically since the beginning of this century, so if poverty increases the crime rate we would expect an increase. > > [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703440604575495670714069694.html?mod=WSJ\_hpp\_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703440604575495670714069694.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird) > > \*\*Fig 3 of Violent Offenses shows a significant decline in the US after 1991, a less significant decline in the UK, and a fairly flat rate in Canada. > \*\* > **Fig 5 of homicide rates shows a significant decline in the United States after 1991. Homicide is flat in the UK and Canada.** > > \*\*Fig 7 of robbery rates shows a significant decline in the United States after 1991, an increase in the UK, and a flat rate in Canada. > > Fig 9 of aggravated assault again shows a decline i\*\*n the U.S. after 1991, a higher rate in the UK, and a flat rate in Canada. > > Fig 11 of burglary rates shows a continual decline in the U.S. after 1981, and higher rates in UK and Canada. > > Fig 13 of Motor Theft again shows a decline in 1991 in the US, and a higher rate in the UK. > > [http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/briefs/b29/b29-eng.shtml#LinkTarget\_562](http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/briefs/b29/b29-eng.shtml#LinkTarget_562) > > Higher rates of burglary rates in Canada and the UK have been attributed to more gun ownership by home owners in the United States than in Canada and the UK. The standard argument against strict gun control laws is that law abiding people obey them while criminals do not. In order to evaluate this argument I would need to be able to compare gun ownership by criminals in Canada, the UK, and the US. I do not have that information. > > The information in this essay is supportive of Freakonomics because it does show a significant decline in most crimes in the U.S. after 1991. > > It is less supportive of my theses that a tripling of the prison population contributed to a decline in the crime rate after 1980. However, the data I use to show fluctuations in the crime rate begin in 1960 and end in 2010. > > During the 1960s the prison population in the United States declined. Poverty declined because of a broadly based economic expansion and an expansion of the welfare system. The crime rate doubled. One can argue, and I agree, that part of the decline was caused by an increase in the youth population. One cannot argue that the decline in poverty and the civil rights legislation reduced the crime rate. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/158 "2012-05-27T02:25:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The only people who might see the government “advancing” blacks at “their expense” are lower income whites. Yet the loss of respect for the government cuts acrosss all social and economic boundaries. You are singling out one (rather small) sectrion of the society who has perception problems and trying to claim the attitudes of the overwhelming majority of the population is the same as that small segment. The sea change in American presidential politics–the replacement of a liberal majority with a conservative majority–involved the conversion of a relatively small proportion of voters: the roughly five to ten percent of the electorate, made up primarily of white working-class voters, empowered to give majority status to either political party. > **[Race - 91.05](https://www.theatlantic.com/past/politics/race/edsall.htm)** > > Atlantic Unbound: The Atlantic Monthly Magazine Online ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/159 "2012-05-27T02:32:11Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > love facts that can be documented, and logical reasoning. I am afraid that this claim is entirely vitiated by this: > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I already posted this. Here it is again: None of tyhat actually explains, (or even addresses), why Canada and the U.S. can have similar drops of crime when you were claiming that the huge increase in incarceration in the U.S. was the primary, (at the time, you were saying only), factor in the U.S. rate while Canada had no such prison explosion. That is hardly “logical.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/160 "2012-05-27T02:42:29Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The sea change in American presidential politics–the replacement of a liberal majority with a conservative majority–involved the conversion of a relatively small proportion of voters: the roughly five to ten percent of the electorate, made up primarily of white working-class voters, empowered to give majority status to either political party. So what? Your OP, (and numerous posts since that time), discussed a general trend of the American populace. Had you simply asked how Reagan won the presidency and the Republicans later took Congress, we would be having a different discussion in which your claims, here, would be one (of several) factors.\* Once more, you have moved the goalposts. - (_Another factor, of course, would have been the Republican “Southern Strategy” that played up racism, often with lies, to sway an ill-informed portion of the electorate. Look how often “Affirmative Action” gets dragged into these discussions, with the clear claim that AA is “giving” “white jobs” to blacks, when the reality is that AA has generally provided women, not blacks, more opportunity to enter the workforce. All those white males are being told to fear blacks getting their jobs when it has actually been their own wives and daughters._ :p) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937.md?page=9)