# Why has the government lost prestige since 1964? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937 "2012-05-24T11:17:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/161 "2012-05-27T02:57:25Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Do you have anything resembling a reference to support this silly claim? (Fox News, perhaps?) Please show that a significant number of blacks actually quit jobs to go on welfare, then provide evidence that whites did not do the same thing at the same rates. The table in this website shows that welfare rolls grew more during the 1960s than in any other decade from 1950 to 1990. They grew from 3,073,000 to 7,429,000. > **[Welfare Policymaking in the States](https://books.google.com/books?id=g5AtQOV9lzEC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=%22welfare%2Brolls%22%2B%2B%2B1960%2B%2B%2B1970%2B%2B%2B1980%2B%2B%2B1990&source=bl&ots=J38biVJuYq&sig=HBUgY4wPi5DJH4-1iXHCwr-4bAE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SJHBT4aaNeWA6gHriI21Cg&sqi=2&ved=0CGMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22welfare%20rolls%22%20%2B%201960%20%2B%201970%20%2B%201980%20%2B%201990&f=false)** > > Now that responsibility for welfare policy has devolved from Washington to the states, Pamela Winston examines how the welfare policymaking process has changed. Under the welfare reform act of 1996, welfare was the first and most basic safety net... Nevertheless, from 1960 to 1970 unemployment declined from 5.5 percent to 4.9 percent. > **[Where can I find the unemployment rate for previous years?](https://www.bls.gov/cps/prev_yrs.htm)** > > Where can I find the unemployment rate for previous years? Among the poorest of the poor–single mothers, living below the poverty line with minor children to support 39.7 percent of AFDC clients are Black single mothers and 38.1 percent are White women with children. Food stamp recipients are 37.2 percent Black and 46.2 percent White. Medicaid benefits are paid to 27.5 percent Black recipients compared to 48.5 percent White clients. [http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi\_m1077/is\_n2\_v48/ai\_12970819/](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n2_v48/ai_12970819/) Because there are about seven times as many whites in the United States as blacks, blacks are much more likely to be on welfare. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/162 "2012-05-27T02:59:14Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am afraid that this claim is entirely vitiated by this: > None of tyhat actually explains, (or even addresses), why Canada and the U.S. can have similar drops of crime when you were claiming that the huge increase in incarceration in the U.S. was the primary, (at the time, you were saying only), factor in the U.S. rate while Canada had no such prison explosion. That is hardly “logical.” Excuse me. The rates of violent crime in Canada from the charts in the website you posted were fairly flat. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/163 "2012-05-27T03:01:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > - (_Another factor, of course, would have been the Republican “Southern Strategy” that played up racism, often with lies, to sway an ill-informed portion of the electorate. Look how often “Affirmative Action” gets dragged into these discussions, with the clear claim that AA is “giving” “white jobs” to blacks, when the reality is that AA has generally provided women, not blacks, more opportunity to enter the workforce. All those white males are being told to fear blacks getting their jobs when it has actually been their own wives and daughters._ :p) Whether affirmative action discriminates against men or whites, it discriminates against white men. Rich white men are not harmed because they already have it made. Working class white men are harmed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/164 "2012-05-27T06:17:31Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > How do you figure that? > [@](#): > > the Kennedy assination Not government action, unless you accept certain theories. > [@](#): > > The Vietnam War Government action, certainly, and **does** shake faith in government. The most important and relevant item on your list, really. But, it ended in 1974, get over it. > [@](#): > > Watergate Perpetrated by one branch of government, brought to account by the two other branches. The general consensus at the end was, “See? The system works!” > [@](#): > > The failure of Operation: Eagle Claw (Iran hostage rescue attempt) A failed **military** action, which is government, but not what is usually meant by the term in these discussions. Does Carter deserve blame for even trying? > [@](#): > > the S&L banking crisis **Lack** of government action. Too much laissez-faire let the industry ruin itself. (I’ve heard the libertarian argument, which is that this would not have happened if deregulation of the industy had been combined with withdrawing federal deposit guarantees; be that as it may, it’s another discussion.) > [@](#): > > the Iran Contra fiasco Same as with Watergate, but with a less edifying ending . . . Anywaty, whether you sympathize here with Congress, or the Reagan Admin and Ollie North (as countless assholes did, very loudly), you’re sympathizing with the government, aren’t you? Intramural conflict. > [@](#): > > The Bill Clinton Blowjob Show Involves government officials/employees, involves action, but not government action as such. Any private-sector CEO might have done the same sort of thing. All the ethical issues would be the same. > [@](#): > > The Dot com crash Purely private-sector. Why even bring this up?! > [@](#): > > The Bush/Gore election fiasco **That’s** something to shake faith in government, I’ll grant you. But, again, intramural/interpartisan. And, most of the malfeasance here was by the **state** government that [purged the voter rolls.](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Voter_roll_purge_in_the_2000_Florida_election) State government is not what is usually meant by “the government” in these discussions. The only federal involvement was by the SCOTUS – which is not **supposed** to enjoy public confidence, it is supposed to be insulated from political pressure. > [@](#): > > 9/11 Government failure to prevent it; government response as vigorous as any could ask. > [@](#): > > Hurricane Katrina Natural disaster; government response (and prevention) not all it should have been. > [@](#): > > Enron Government failure – but at the **state** level, again, not what is usually meant by “government” in these discussions. > [@](#): > > Sarah Palin Is **not** VPOTUS – the system works! > [@](#): > > The Great Recession Government responsibility here is ineluctably controversial. As with the S&L crisis, could be blamed on a too laissez-faire approach. Or, it could have been inevitable – considering the **rest** of the world is in the same recession. There might have been nothing at all the USG could do to prevent it. So, only a partial, spotty record for these scandals being attributable to “the government.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/165 "2012-05-27T06:44:07Z")
The lesson people learned from Watergate wasn’t “the system works”. The lesson people learned was “You can’t trust the President.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/166 "2012-05-27T07:12:01Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The lesson people learned from Watergate wasn’t “the system works”. The lesson people learned was “You can’t trust the President.” I thought it was “The President is not above the law.” (A lesson which Nixon staffer Dick Cheney consciously rejected on principle and spent the rest of his political career intentionally working to reverse, but that’s another story.) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/167 "2012-05-27T09:46:08Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The lesson people learned from Watergate wasn’t “the system works”. The lesson people learned was “You can’t trust the President.” Watergate was a long time ago. Does Watergate cause people to lack confidence in President Obama’s health plan and his efforts to fix the economy? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/168 "2012-05-27T11:33:32Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The table in this website shows that welfare rolls grew more during the 1960s than in any other decade from 1950 to 1990. They grew from 3,073,000 to 7,429,000. > > [Welfare Policymaking in the States: The Devil in Devolution - Pamela Winston - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=g5AtQOV9lzEC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=%22welfare+rolls%22+%2B+1960+%2B+1970+%2B+1980+%2B+1990&source=bl&ots=J38biVJuYq&sig=HBUgY4wPi5DJH4-1iXHCwr-4bAE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SJHBT4aaNeWA6gHriI21Cg&sqi=2&ved=0CGMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22welfare%20rolls%22%20%2B%201960%20%2B%201970%20%2B%201980%20%2B%201990&f=false) > > Nevertheless, from 1960 to 1970 unemployment declined from 5.5 percent to 4.9 percent. > > [http://www.bls.gov/cps/prev\_yrs.htm](http://www.bls.gov/cps/prev_yrs.htm) > > Among the poorest of the poor–single mothers, living below the poverty line with minor children to support 39.7 percent of AFDC clients are Black single mothers and 38.1 percent are White women with children. Food stamp recipients are 37.2 percent Black and 46.2 percent White. Medicaid benefits are paid to 27.5 percent Black recipients compared to 48.5 percent White clients. > [http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi\_m1077/is\_n2\_v48/ai\_12970819/](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n2_v48/ai_12970819/) > > Because there are about seven times as many whites in the United States as blacks, blacks are much more likely to be on welfare. So what? Your claim was that blacks actively quit jobs to go on welfare and that whites would not do the same things. Nothing in your figures supports either assertion. The gross numbers simply show that as the population increased, larger numbers of people who were in poverty accepted government support in locations where there was no work while in other locations, the amount of available work increased. Since those trapped in poverty tended to be those in major urban centers, (particularly in the Rust Belt), while manufacturing tended to move away from those areas to the South and West and from urban centers to suburbs and exurbia, both trends are true: jobs increased overall in the country, but they were located in places distant from those centers of poverty where most poor black people lived. You have simply made a claim for which you have, once again, failed to provide evidence. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/169 "2012-05-27T11:48:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You have simply made a claim for which you have, once again, failed to provide evidence. Just because you do not like the evidence does not mean that it is not there. This indicates that when other factors are held equal blacks are more likely to go on welfare: > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Among the poorest of the poor–single mothers, living below the poverty line with minor children to support 39.7 percent of AFDC clients are Black single mothers and 38.1 percent are White women with children. Food stamp recipients are 37.2 percent Black and 46.2 percent White. Medicaid benefits are paid to 27.5 percent Black recipients compared to 48.5 percent White clients. > [http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi\_m1077/is\_n2\_v48/ai\_12970819/](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n2_v48/ai_12970819/) ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/170 "2012-05-27T14:09:38Z")
There’s also greater awareness of COINTELPRO, Operation Gladio and the various coups the US has been instrumental in globally. Also, I wouldn’t trust the Daily Mail to report crime statistics. The Guardian offers a fairer analysis [here](http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/14/crime-statistics-england-wales). Of particular note in that graph, murder rates have been declining each year since the 90s and the [black population](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_England#Ethnicity) has been increasing since then. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/171 "2012-05-27T14:12:03Z")
Obviously the UK has a particularly unmotivated. slothful lot of blacks if they can’t even get their murder on properly. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/172 "2012-05-27T14:13:52Z")
And the last thing the UK can afford is a Murder Gap. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/173 "2012-05-27T17:34:25Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Watergate was a long time ago. Does Watergate cause people to lack confidence in President Obama’s health plan and his efforts to fix the economy? The Great Society was even longer ago, though, and you’re willing to say that that’s the cause. I have to think if it was anything, it was the rise of the New Right and the New Left, neither of which really trusted the government. And I think that largely happened because of the Cold War. The New Right was so afraid of the Soviet Union, they started seeing any sort of government social programs as the first step towards totalitarian Communism, and the New Left was infected with Marxism and saw the US government as a tool of capitalist imperialism that was structured at home to oppress the poor and minorities. Plus, remember, the New Deal only happened in the first place because everybody was so desperate. The country was falling apart, and people were willing to accept pretty much any solution. And then, those parts of the New Deal that survived (like Social Security and the TVA) became so entrenched into American society that nobody could imagine a country without them. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/174 "2012-05-27T18:18:24Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Just because you do not like the evidence does not mean that it is not there. This indicates that when other factors are held equal blacks are more likely to go on welfare: …precisely which “other factors” are being held even? You didn’t show enough numbers to reach this conclusion, but what you posted did suggest that, if _poverty_ is accounted for, then black Americans are _less likely_ to receive welfare benefits. IOW, the evidence you presented says the opposite of what you say it says. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/175 "2012-05-27T23:44:14Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Just because you do not like the evidence does not mean that it is not there. This indicates that when other factors are held equal blacks are more likely to go on welfare: What evidence? You have provided nothing to support your claims. Yes, a lot of black people went on welfare and those numbers increased in the 1960s. However, no other factors were “held equal.” You are making assertions with nothing to support them but misinterpreted data. Let’s look at metro Detroit. In the 1950s, GM (mostly Cadillac) was in Detroit, Chrysler was in Highland Park, (a Detroit inurb), and Ford was in Dearborn. All of those factories were heavily served by the Detroit Street Railway, (trolleys and bus lines). In the late 1950s and throughout the 1960s, GM and Chrysler built several new plants in Macomb County to the North of Detroit and Ford built several new plants in western Wayne County. None of those plants was served by the DSR and most of them were between fifteen and twenty-five miles away from the core plants from which they were spun off. This followed the path of suburban growth that began in the late 1940s. The plants were built in the middle of white neighborhoods with new roads connecting them to the nearby white suburbs and no public transportation available for people from the city of Detroit to reach them. (My Dad, living in an inner suburb, worked at the back of the Cadillac plant. Whenever Mom needed the car, he would take a commuter train downtown, then a streetcar or bus over to the plant. When GM moved his facility out to lily-white Warren, there was no bus available for him to use and he needed to get rides with co-workers who lived in surrounding suburbs.) So, employment by GM, Ford, and Chrysler rose all through the 1960s, but the opportunity for blacks to actually get to those plants was reduced significantly. _(I do not assert that this was a racist effort by the auto companies. They were simply following the general trend of moving to suburbia along with the rest of the (white) population.)_ When there was any dip in auto sales, the people hurt first were the ones in the older plants–where the vast majority of blacks were employed–and they were often restricted in their abilities to reach the newer plants. This is just one example of how things were not really “equal” between whites and blacks and you have failed to provide any example of anything being “held equal.” You are simply imagining things the way you need to pretend they were to support your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/176 "2012-05-28T00:17:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > What evidence? > > You have provided nothing to support your claims. > > Yes, a lot of black people went on welfare and those numbers increased in the 1960s. However, no other factors were “held equal.” You are making assertions with nothing to support them but misinterpreted data. > > Let’s look at metro Detroit. In the 1950s, GM (mostly Cadillac) was in Detroit, Chrysler was in Highland Park, (a Detroit inurb), and Ford was in Dearborn. All of those factories were heavily served by the Detroit Street Railway, (trolleys and bus lines). In the late 1950s and throughout the 1960s, GM and Chrysler built several new plants in Macomb County to the North of Detroit and Ford built several new plants in western Wayne County. None of those plants was served by the DSR and most of them were between fifteen and twenty-five miles away from the core plants from which they were spun off. This followed the path of suburban growth that began in the late 1940s. The plants were built in the middle of white neighborhoods with new roads connecting them to the nearby white suburbs and no public transportation available for people from the city of Detroit to reach them. (My Dad, living in an inner suburb, worked at the back of the Cadillac plant. Whenever Mom needed the car, he would take a commuter train downtown, then a streetcar or bus over to the plant. When GM moved his facility out to lily-white Warren, there was no bus available for him to use and he needed to get rides with co-workers who lived in surrounding suburbs.) So, employment by GM, Ford, and Chrysler rose all through the 1960s, but the opportunity for blacks to actually get to those plants was reduced significantly. _(I do not assert that this was a racist effort by the auto companies. They were simply following the general trend of moving to suburbia along with the rest of the (white) population.)_ When there was any dip in auto sales, the people hurt first were the ones in the older plants–where the vast majority of blacks were employed–and they were often restricted in their abilities to reach the newer plants. This is just one example of how things were not really “equal” between whites and blacks and you have failed to provide any example of anything being “held equal.” You are simply imagining things the way you need to pretend they were to support your beliefs. Go back and read #169 again. When whites and blacks are equally poor blacks are more likely to go on welfare. Factories and office buildings were moved away from black neighborhoods because they were high crime neighborhoods. Currently Detroit is 82.7% black. > **[Detroit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit)** > > Detroit (/dɪˈtrɔɪt/ ⓘ dih-TROYT, .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}locally also /ˈdiːtrɔɪt/ DEE-troyt) is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Michigan. It is situated on the bank of the Detroit River across from Windsor, Ontario. It had a population of 639,111 at the 2020 census, making it the 26th-most populous city in t In... According to Neighborhood Scout, Detroit has a crime index of 1, where 100 is safest, and 0 is most dangerous. > **[Detroit, MI Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout](https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/detroit/crime)** > > Most accurate 2021 crime rates for Detroit, MI. Your chance of being a victim of violent crime in Detroit is 1 in 50 and property crime is 1 in 22. Compare Detroit crime data to other cities, states, and neighborhoods in the U.S. on... An additional factor may be that blacks are considered to be less capable and less reliable, even for factory work. I have read that when foreign companies open auto plants in the United States they deliberately build them away from black neighborhoods because they do not want to hire blacks. This would not be irrational color prejudice, but the knowledge that blacks tend to be less intelligent and more dangerous than whites and Orientals. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/177 "2012-05-28T00:41:52Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Go back and read #169 again. When whites and blacks are equally poor blacks are more likely to go on welfare. I already said this once, but you have this exactly opposite the evidence you cited. Let’s try this again: > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Among the poorest of the poor–single mothers, living below the poverty line with minor children to support 39.7 percent of AFDC clients are Black single mothers and 38.1 percent are White women with children. Food stamp recipients are 37.2 percent Black and 46.2 percent White. Medicaid benefits are paid to 27.5 percent Black recipients compared to 48.5 percent White clients. 39.7% of Impoverished single mothers are black, yet only 37.2% receive food stamps, and only 27.5% receive Medicaid. See how the two numbers measuring welfare access are smaller than the number related to poverty? _That’s the exact opposite of what you are claiming it is._ Worse still the article you got it from is explicitly about how black Americans receive disproportionately little welfare. IOW, you have it exactly backwards, and you’re not seeing it when we point out the error. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/178 "2012-05-28T00:54:52Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Go back and read #169 again. When whites and blacks are equally poor blacks are more likely to go on welfare. Your citation says no such thing. It merely lists the rates at which people of different races participate in various programs at the time that the survey was made. There is nothing in there identifying who is “equally poor.” There is nothing that demonstrates that blacks take advantage of the same conditions more frequently than whites. That is nothing more than your need to believe it to be true. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Factories and office buildings were moved away from black neighborhoods because they were high crime neighborhoods. Not in the 1950s. Agfain, you are simply asserting what you wish to believe without any evidence that it was true. When Chrysler began moving out of Highland Park, it was still overwhelmingly white, as was its neighbor Hamtramck. The shift toward the having a majority black population only began ten years or more after the plants moved. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > An additional factor may be that blacks are considered to be less capable and less reliable, even for factory work. I have read that when foreign companies open auto plants in the United States they deliberately build them away from black neighborhoods because they do not want to hire blacks. This would not be irrational color prejudice, but the knowledge that blacks tend to be less intelligent and more dangerous than whites and Orientals. Oh, bullshit. It is nothing more than expressed prejudices. You are applying a 2012 fear of blacks onto neighborhoods that were predominantly white fifty years ago and your little race claim is better left to the thread you opened to “discuss” it. Even if your silly race nonsense was true, the fact is that the plants were moved out of white neighborhoods to other white neighborhoods, not moved from black neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/179 "2012-05-28T02:16:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Oh, bullshit. It is nothing more than expressed prejudices. You are applying a 2012 fear of blacks onto neighborhoods that were predominantly white fifty years ago and your little race claim is better left to the thread you opened to “discuss” it. > > Even if your silly race nonsense was true, the fact is that the plants were moved out of white neighborhoods to other white neighborhoods, not moved from black neighborhoods. You know more about Detroit than I do. What I do know is that the population is 85 percent black, and that it has one of the highest crime rates in the country. Nationally there has been a move of factories and office buildings away from black neighborhoods because they are not safe. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937/180 "2012-05-28T02:30:41Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > You know more about Detroit than I do. What I do know is that the population is 85 percent black, and that it has one of the highest crime rates in the country. > > Nationally there has been a move of factories and office buildings away from black neighborhoods because they are not safe. Scramble, dodge, weave. You are still ignoring, (apparently deliberately), the facts that argue against your claims. Detroit is 85% black now, but blacks were definitely a minority in the 1950s and 1960s when the factories were moved away from the city. They did not move out in those years because the cities were not “safe” or even because there were black people living nearby. They simply followed a demographic trend that blacks were actively prevented from sharing. Your claim is false on that point, whatever may have happened in the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s. That you continue to repeat your anachronistic mantra indicates that you are unwilling to look at facts, (unlike your earlier claim), and that you ignore logic whenever it opposes your views. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-government-lost-prestige-since-1964/622937.md?page=10)