# Why has the U.S. Army ruined the beret? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 18, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764 "2011-02-18T01:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/41 "2011-02-18T19:07:58Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > They have completely destroyed the shape of the beret. Basically, it looks like some kind of skullcap that has been stretched at one end. Like a yarmulke that some kid has jumped up and tugged on to ruin its shape. That’s not what a beret is, and it looks fucking horrible. That’s essentially the way it’s worn in the Canadian Forces. It’s also the same way U.S. special forces wore it before. It looks fine to me. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/42 "2011-02-18T19:10:12Z")
> [@Teacake](#): > > And it’s pastime, not past time. But I’m probably only correcting you because I hate and fear you as a foreigner. The usage I’ve become adjusted to is “mere foreigner.” ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/43 "2011-02-18T19:22:17Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > They have a very tight looking beret precisely to distinguish them from the poofy artist-beret.The beret is associated with hippies, artists and such which is at the polar opposite of the military. Military aesthetic choices are usually about being very clean cut, stern and definitely not poofy. This is true, and this is probably to reflect the professional warrior nature of today’s military. If you look at soldiers from the era when we had a draft, they tended to look like [civilians wearing uniforms](http://news.webshots.com/photo/1382912261072697624HmXvmD). Hats worn more-or-less correctly, uniform neat and pressed, haircut within regulations, but that was all. Unless in combat, their faces often had a “Hi Mom, write soon” kind of look. Today they look like elite hardasses - they put their hats on with T squares, and the uniform includes not just haircut but facial expression, speech and tone of voice. If you want to see the ideal military appearance today, just look at the late [Pat Tillman](http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040424/040424_pat_tillman_vmed.grid-4x2.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/44 "2011-02-18T19:34:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s essentially the way it’s worn in the Canadian Forces. It’s also the same way U.S. special forces wore it before. > > It looks fine to me. I think what he’s talking about is when you look from the soldier’s left side, you’ll see that the beret conforms to the contour of the head until you get to about an inch and a half from the front of the beret, and then the front stands straight-up, and there’s a pronounced divot between the stand-up part and the conforming part. It almost looks like the front of the beret has some kind of stiffening insert to shape that part. In other words: Ok: [http://img.over-blog.com/454x500/0/39/65/84/july-2009/GB5/tcarpenter\_14.jpg](http://img.over-blog.com/454x500/0/39/65/84/july-2009/GB5/tcarpenter_14.jpg) Not so ok: [http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army\_board\_study\_guide\_topics/uniforms/proper-wear-of-the-army-b.shtml](http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/uniforms/proper-wear-of-the-army-b.shtml) I’m no soldier, but I used to have one of my uncle’s old berets (82nd Airborne) from the mid-80’s, and that beret definitely did not have anything stiff about it. ---
**Author:** ![Teacake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Teacake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teacake)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/45 "2011-02-18T19:36:11Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I guess he was just reacting to posts 4 and 12 with the usual mixture of fagotry and cowardice that is expected to be the make-up of any French. But that didnt seem to spark any indignation in you, did it? So the response to Americans complaining about Americans, and insulting the French, is to make a randomly offensive remark about… the British? That’s a reasonable reaction to you? OK. Post 4 didn’t strike me as particularly ill-meant; if someone had said something similar about the British (which people are always doing, even here), I wouldn’t have reacted. Post 12 I would have been more offended by on behalf of my gay male friends than my (recent) French ancestry. You’re right, I didn’t challenge either of them. In future I will range this message board like a nosy hydra, sticking a head into everyone’s business and becoming outraged on their behalf by the merest suggestion of a slight, even when I know they’re here, able to judge whether they’re offended or not, and if they are, able to defend themselves. Better? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/46 "2011-02-18T19:41:16Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think what he’s talking about is when you look from the soldier’s left side, you’ll see that the beret conforms to the contour of the head until you get to about an inch and a half from the front of the beret, and then the front stands straight-up, and there’s a pronounced divot between the stand-up part and the conforming part. It almost looks like the front of the beret has some kind of stiffening insert to shape that part. > > … > > I’m no soldier, but I used to have one of my uncle’s old berets (82nd Airborne) from the mid-80’s, and that beret definitely did not have anything stiff about it. Yeah, I think this is getting at my point. The beret is not a skullcap with a stiff protrusion at the front and down one side. It shouldn’t hug the head. And a baseball cap should never be part of any uniform except … baseball. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/47 "2011-02-18T19:44:20Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think what he’s talking about is when you look from the soldier’s left side, you’ll see that the beret conforms to the contour of the head until you get to about an inch and a half from the front of the beret, and then the front stands straight-up, and there’s a pronounced divot between the stand-up part and the conforming part. It almost looks like the front of the beret has some kind of stiffening insert to shape that part. > > In other words: > > Ok: [http://img.over-blog.com/454x500/0/39/65/84/july-2009/GB5/tcarpenter\_14.jpg](http://img.over-blog.com/454x500/0/39/65/84/july-2009/GB5/tcarpenter_14.jpg) > > Not so ok: [http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army\_board\_study\_guide\_topics/uniforms/proper-wear-of-the-army-b.shtml](http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/uniforms/proper-wear-of-the-army-b.shtml) See how the guide says “pull” the excess fabric over the right ear? That’s the official version. The real deal is what your sergeant probably bitches at you about in inspection - you pull it _tight_ and make sure there’s a good crease to the right side. The difference between soldier and civilian puke has to be _that_ clean-cut. It’s all part of military discipline. Every army needs to do things it doesn’t care to have written down in manuals and regulations. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/48 "2011-02-18T19:52:28Z")
> [@BMax](#): > > Now Airborne, Ranger & SF only have the color of their beret to show that they’re bad asses. Yeah, because nothing says “bad ass” like a piece of felt pulled down over one side of your skull. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/49 "2011-02-18T20:10:08Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think what he’s talking about is when you look from the soldier’s left side, you’ll see that the beret conforms to the contour of the head until you get to about an inch and a half from the front of the beret, and then the front stands straight-up, and there’s a pronounced divot between the stand-up part and the conforming part. It almost looks like the front of the beret has some kind of stiffening insert to shape that part. > > In other words: > > Ok: [http://img.over-blog.com/454x500/0/39/65/84/july-2009/GB5/tcarpenter\_14.jpg](http://img.over-blog.com/454x500/0/39/65/84/july-2009/GB5/tcarpenter_14.jpg) > > Not so ok: [http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army\_board\_study\_guide\_topics/uniforms/proper-wear-of-the-army-b.shtml](http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/uniforms/proper-wear-of-the-army-b.shtml) > I’m no soldier, but I used to have one of my uncle’s old berets (82nd Airborne) from the mid-80’s, and that beret definitely did not have anything stiff about it. When I was in way back in the olden days of 89-to-mid-90s, it took several days to get a beret looking good. It had to have the lining ripped out, soaked in water, shaved, soaked in water, shaped, shaved, shaped, stuck under a cabinet overnight to crush it into its shape, shaped, maybe shaved again. Some soldiers trimmed the cardboard a bit where the [flash](http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&biw=1246&bih=753&q=beret+flash&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g2g-m3&aql=&oq=&safe=active) is sewn on. It took a lot of work to make it look that good. I think this is counter to the OP’s oppinion, but I think the berets look the best when they’re propery shaped (see Pat Tillman). There’s a little wiggle room to make the beret individualized, but it still looks pretty good. Later, the Army decided that everyone was high speed and all should wear a beret. That’s when they started looking like chef’s hat and were all backwards and stuff. Kind of waters it down a little. I have a running buddy here who is a retired colonel and a Ranger. He’s not too broken up about the Rangers losing the black beret so all the pogues can have one, too. I think most of the Rangers share a similar oppinion and the tan ones do look pretty cool anyway. Incidentally, I think it’s pretty cool that the green beret worn by Special Forces soliders is a [presidential award](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_(United_States_Army)#The_Green_Beret). ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/50 "2011-02-18T21:03:02Z")
Maybe we can go back to [Shakos](http://www.overlookonhudson.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/splash2.jpg) and [Busbies](http://hat.weben.fr/images/busby-seo-test.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/51 "2011-02-18T21:47:57Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Yes… they are attractors in a camo situation… they stick out like a sore thumb in enemy territory. Heh. In Bad Company 2 (first person shooter), all the classes wear camo-type uniforms, but for some reason, the Russian medics wear a bright red beret that sticks out… it’s almost like they want to be shot at… (the US medics don’t have this problem, as they wear a camo baseball cap). [Image](http://cdn.gamerant.com/wp-content/uploads/Battlefield-Bad-Company-2-SPECACT-Kits-on-PS31.jpg). It just screams SHOOT ME! ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/52 "2011-02-18T22:35:26Z")
Personally, I think the US Army should have stayed with the ever popular [forage cap](http://www.njsekela.com/OSCommerce/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=32&osCsid=566b6639097806b99f98e87fb3719392), from the late 1850’s and worn throughout the US Civil War. These hats disappeared for some reason, but I can’t find a reason why. Apparently, they were cheap to make, popular to wear, and didn’t look anything like a beret. If anyone knows why the US Army phased out the forge cap, please post a link. As for the beret, I liked it when it was something special for those soldiers who earned it. Special Forces, Rangers, Green Berets. That Pat Tillman photo to me is the idea I have on how every one of those guys looks. The best of the best, and immediately commanding respect. Everyone having one cheapens it. Nothing says tough like a ponytail folded up in the back, kept tightly to the head with bobby pins. Plus, as a functional hat, it’s pointless. It doesn’t keep the sun out of your eyes, or redirect rain. The badasses could handle that, but not your average G.I. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/53 "2011-02-18T23:07:29Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It almost looks like the front of the beret has some kind of stiffening insert to shape that part. That’s because it does. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/54 "2011-02-18T23:26:01Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > As for the beret, I liked it when it was something special for those soldiers who earned it. Special Forces, Rangers, Green Berets. That Pat Tillman photo to me is the idea I have on how every one of those guys looks. The best of the best, and immediately commanding respect.. …if for nothing else than being such a thoroughly engineered human weapon, and looking it. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/55 "2011-02-18T23:49:24Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Personally, I think the US Army should have stayed with the ever popular [forage cap](http://www.njsekela.com/OSCommerce/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=32&osCsid=566b6639097806b99f98e87fb3719392), from the late 1850’s and worn throughout the US Civil War Forage cap was mainly worn by the Army of the Potomac. Shermans Army wore [black](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KgBT8kIRgBo/S_ynyAQblRI/AAAAAAAAGpQ/SEi_yfeLWPc/s1600/Shermans-Burning-Atlanta.jpg) [slouch](http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/90003200.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D0138CB22D7F8D92FAE5140EC91C80401FCA66E209A4865B41) [caps](http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/90001577.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D051C60CC13B789C21CB40B5EFE5EDA296BF7C096093C130B5). (yes, you can find photos of Shermans soliders in forage caps, and Grant’s in brimmed hats, but as a rule that’s how most of them were covered). After the war, the Army of the Potomac marched down Pennsylvania Avenue, and everyone cheered at the boys in cute little caps who’d saved Washington from invasion. The next day Sherman’s Army of the Tennessee had their turn, but the crowd was more subdued at the men in sinister black hats who’d burned Atlanta. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/56 "2011-02-19T00:16:01Z")
First week at Basic a lot of “free” time is spent shaping your beret. Hot water soaks, cutting out the lining… Mine looks awesome. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/57 "2011-02-19T02:01:30Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > …if for nothing else than being such a thoroughly engineered human weapon, and looking it. more or less, yes. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/58 "2011-02-19T02:08:54Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > After the war, the Army of the Potomac marched down Pennsylvania Avenue, and everyone cheered at the boys in cute little caps who’d saved Washington from invasion. The next day Sherman’s Army of the Tennessee had their turn, but the crowd was more subdued at the men in sinister black hats who’d burned Atlanta. 2 of the 3 pics were inaccessible for me, but are you saying that the forge/kepi style hat was dropped because of this march of men in sinister black hats? Because I am pretty sure the Army used the kepi after the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/59 "2011-02-19T02:45:03Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Personally, I think the US Army should have stayed with the ever popular [forage cap](http://www.njsekela.com/OSCommerce/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=32&osCsid=566b6639097806b99f98e87fb3719392), from the late 1850’s and worn throughout the US Civil War. > > These hats disappeared for some reason, but I can’t find a reason why. Apparently, they were cheap to make, popular to wear, and didn’t look anything like a beret. If anyone knows why the US Army phased out the forge cap, please post a link. That hat – the kepi – was also a French hat, and was basically a cut-down version of the shako. I believe that I heard some Civil War expert – maybe in the Ken Burns documentary? – say that those hats were extremely uncomfortable, unpopular, and did nothing to protect the soldiers from sun and rain and they were routinely ditched in favor of broad-brimmed hats. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/60 "2011-02-19T03:37:58Z")
I think the forage caps were phased out so they could start selling them to tourists in Civil War themed gift shops (usually with cheap USA or CSA flag stickers stuck to the top). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764.md?page=4)