# Why has the U.S. Army ruined the beret? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 18, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764 "2011-02-18T01:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/61 "2011-02-19T03:54:14Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > 2 of the 3 pics were inaccessible for me, but are you saying that the forge/kepi style hat was dropped because of this march of men in sinister black hats? Because I am pretty sure the Army used the kepi after the Civil War. For dress-up, the Army and Marines wore the kepi for a few more years, but for field service, brimmed hats were more popular. After the French lost the Franco-Prussian war, the military prestige they’d enjoyed since Napoleon degraded. By the 1880’s the US army swapped their French kepis for Germainc spiked helmets with horsehair plumes (dyed yellow for cavlary, red for artillery, light blue for infantry) for the dress uniform. They looked great, but were impractical and soon replaced by simpler baracks cover-style caps, with service-color cords. For field use, the cavalry wore dark blue slouch hats, until the Spanish-American War, when they and the infanty wore the M1898 hat: khaki felt with 3 vent holes. It had the same for-and-aft crease in the crown as the old Wild West hat, but that crease held water now that the army was serving in the rainy Phillipines. So the army switched to the “Montana peak” style campaign hat still worn by drill sergeants/instructors. They still had service-colored cords, with “acorns” on the ends. For Marines, only officers hats had acorns. These hats were made out of felt: matted animal hair; until the sudden need for millions of them in WWI required use of less expensive wool. At regular visits to the milliner they were sprayed with sugar water and re-blocked with the brims ironed flat, although the Marines liked to affect a pugnatious upward curl in front. (OK, [one photo link I can’t resist](http://www.network54.com/Realm/gunnygrealm/LChaney.gif)). But the “Smokey the Bear” campaign hats were trouble to stow and maintian when at the front in 1918, where soldiers now had helmets for the first time, so the US again took the French example and switched to their flat cap, which could be folded and stowed. We called the flat caps “overseas” caps for this reason. The folding flat cap now had edging on it’s seams the color of the service branches. Those millions of campaign hats were dumped on the civillian market for recycling, often by kids who’d cut off the brims, cut the base of the crown into points and fold them up into “Jughead” beanies. So after WWI we had land and air forces set with barracks coves and flat caps, until JFK formed the Green Berets witht the same hats as those dashing European paras (you have to wonder if that was the influence of Jackie Kennedy), and forty years later the whole army had to have them, too. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/62 "2011-02-19T03:55:06Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > That hat – the kepi – was also a French hat, and was basically a cut-down version of the shako. > > I believe that I heard some Civil War expert – maybe in the Ken Burns documentary? – say that those hats were extremely uncomfortable, unpopular, and did nothing to protect the soldiers from sun and rain and they were routinely ditched in favor of broad-brimmed hats. Yes it was of french origin, as far as I remember. They used to have a “curtain” rolled up in the back that, when released, would cover the neck from the sun. Soldiers could soak the cloth in water to cool them down. It must have had SOME value.. it was around for a long time, and I believe still is in alternate forms. I don’t see why they were uncomfortable. It’s basically a hat with a brim. The brim a beret lacks. Perhaps the discomfort of the hat’s material? Perhaps if it was wool, for example, it was hot. I don’t know. Apologies for the slight hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/63 "2011-02-19T03:56:24Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > If you want to see the ideal military appearance today, just look at the late [Pat Tillman](http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040424/040424_pat_tillman_vmed.grid-4x2.jpg). The beret looks good on him there because he’s wearing it more naturally. The angle alone puts him in contravention of the Proper Wear instructions linked earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/64 "2011-02-19T09:21:44Z")
And as usual, the Israeli military redefines how berets should be worn: [on](http://msc.wcdn.co.il/archive/779488-5.jpg) [the](http://www.103.fm/download/pictures/soldier%20fix%20small%201.jpg) [shoulder](http://www.president.gov.il/PresedentImages/university%20soliders.JPG). The thing is, as a result of the fact that 99% of the time, the beret is safety tucked away under the left epaulet, soldiers invest time in molding their headgear to look as good as possible on the shoulder. As a result, on the rare occasions that they actually have to put the damn things on their heads, they either end up a [shapeless mess](http://www.ofaqim.co.il/FckEditor/userfiles/image/%203(1).jpg) or are balanced carefully on the head in the popular [“tent configuration”.](http://www.koogle.co.il/Images/News/F090917EI01.JPG) And don’t get me started about the colors. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/65 "2011-02-19T10:51:50Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Has the U.S. Army really abused it worse it than the [French Army?](http://images.francetop.net/uploads/pics/chasseurs%20alpins_65312.jpg) This is the same beret as the one referred to positively by the OP ( [File:Soutiras.jpg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soutiras.jpg) ) just in a different color, at a different time and seen from a different side (from the right and from the left). Both are berets of the French mountain light infantry (“chasseurs alpins”) , identifiable by their uniform in the modern picture and by the insignias in the older one. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/66 "2011-02-19T11:14:53Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Woah, Judah Friedlander can look sexy, who would have known? > > BTW, been living in France for decades, still have to see one of my fellow countrymen wearing a beret. It’s mostly a SW France thing. In fact, it’s mostly a thing of the past. Berets became trendy in between WWI and WWII. So, it was quite often still worn by middle-aged adults in the 40s and 50s when they weren’t dressed formally (i.e. not wearing a hat). That’s when the image of Frenchmen came to be associated with berets in foreign countries. Of course, beret wearers grew older and eventually passed away and even before that, the trend having disappeared, and men not wearing headgear anymore anyway, it was mostly an “old men in the countryside” thing, and as you said, mostly in south-western France where it originated. Note that the archetypal Briton wears a bowling hat, and I think that this image also formed during the 40s-50s. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/67 "2011-02-19T11:18:15Z")
> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#): > > . While mocking all things France has been a favored American past time (a taste we acquired from the British who just hate and fear all foreigners) it is a practice I will not follow. . What a silly post. The British “Hate and fear all foreigners”. How on earth did we manage to administer the largest empire of all time if we were all so xenophobic ? Actually, your sweeping statement sounds racist to me. Also, with your vast knowledge of the British, you obviously knew that the Brits adopted the Beret for the army and Marines in ww2 and have worn it ever since. Please don’t project your own personal prejudices on to other people. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/68 "2011-02-19T12:10:06Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Note that the archetypal Briton wears a bowling hat, and I think that this image also formed during the 40s-50s. Nitpick: bowler, also known as a derby or coke hat ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/69 "2011-02-19T18:39:43Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > This is true, and this is probably to reflect the professional warrior nature of today’s military. > > If you look at soldiers from the era when we had a draft, they tended to look like [civilians wearing uniforms](http://news.webshots.com/photo/1382912261072697624HmXvmD). Hats worn more-or-less correctly, uniform neat and pressed, haircut within regulations, but that was all. Unless in combat, their faces often had a “Hi Mom, write soon” kind of look. Today they look like elite hardasses - they put their hats on with T squares, and the uniform includes not just haircut but facial expression, speech and tone of voice. > [@Alessan](#): > > And as usual, the Israeli military redefines how berets should be worn: [on](http://msc.wcdn.co.il/archive/779488-5.jpg) [the](http://www.103.fm/download/pictures/soldier%20fix%20small%201.jpg) [shoulder](http://www.president.gov.il/PresedentImages/university%20soliders.JPG). Hmmm… Y’know, the civilians-in-uniform armies (BTW, is that Israeli lady wearing _flipflops_ with her khakis???) somehow seem to have a pretty decent history of getting the job done. Never been too impressed by a “Warrior Caste” vibe. But of course the US Army had to do something different with the beret. Exceptionalism includes headgear. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/70 "2011-02-19T19:04:00Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > (BTW, is that Israeli lady wearing _flipflops_ with her khakis???) Hey, those are regulation sandals. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/71 "2011-02-19T19:20:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Hey, those are regulation sandals. Does it come with regulation sunglasses and lotion? ---
**Author:** ![JerseyMarine2092](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyMarine2092](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyMarine2092)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/72 "2011-02-19T22:08:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Hey, those are regulation sandals. I am by no means an uptight NCO, but they way Israelis wear their uniforms makes my head explode. Now that I’m in the ArNG I have plenty of experience with the black beret. I much prefer the patrol cover (opps sorry “cap”). I try to shape it as much as possible like a Marine Corps’ 8 point cover. It has the effect of making it looks like German soft cap. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/73 "2011-02-19T22:34:51Z")
> [@JerseyMarine2092](#): > > I am by no means an uptight NCO, but they way Israelis wear their uniforms makes my head explode. Institutional culture, I suppose. Israeli troops tend to avoid looking like they care too much about their appearence - you’re supposed to look “soldierly”, but not like some sort of “chocolate soldier”. Tuck in your shirt, blouse your pants, rub some Kiwi on your boots, and you’re good to go. Anything more than that is unprofessional. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/74 "2011-02-20T00:59:32Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Nitpick: bowler, also known as a derby or coke hat Thanks 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JerseyMarine2092](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyMarine2092](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyMarine2092)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/75 "2011-02-20T03:38:47Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Institutional culture, I suppose. Israeli troops tend to avoid looking like they care too much about their appearence - you’re supposed to look “soldierly”, but not like some sort of “chocolate soldier”. Tuck in your shirt, blouse your pants, rub some Kiwi on your boots, and you’re good to go. Anything more than that is unprofessional. Totally understand. Getting used to the Army way of doing things took a while after 6 years of the Marine Corps, so I know it can be world’s different for other countries. As long as you get the mission accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/76 "2011-02-20T09:39:44Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > **Prince:** > > Raspberry beret, if it was warm, she wouldn’t wear much more…\* I think it was raspberry beret, if it was worn, she wouldn’t wear it much more. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/77 "2011-02-20T10:06:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Institutional culture, I suppose. Israeli troops tend to avoid looking like they care too much about their appearence - you’re supposed to look “soldierly”, but not like some sort of “chocolate soldier”. Tuck in your shirt, blouse your pants, rub some Kiwi on your boots, and you’re good to go. Anything more than that is unprofessional. The Rhodesian army was the same way…if you look at photos from the 1979 Bush War, you’d think it was one huge party. They wore shorts, often went shirtless, used all manner of unofficial headgear, etc. Their morale was exceptionally high. Their military even had semi-official minstrels like Clem Tholet and John Edmond. I have never seen as many smiling soldiers as in photos from Rhodesia. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/78 "2011-02-20T15:41:55Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > I remember a news story back in the 90s in which the government got many, many berets at a cheap price from a Chinese manufacturer and decided to make them standard headgear for the Army–to the chagrin of the Green Berets. I thought I read in Stars & Stripes in the 90s that the army expanded the black berets to all (much to the chagrin of the Rangers) for morale purposes. The idea being that military berets are inherently cool and made Humvee mechanics feel better about their job. Looking for a cite, I found this article: [http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=45776](http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=45776) Basically, Shinseki says they adopted the black beret because it was “about change.” Also: “As we looked at our transformation of the entire institution,” Wolfowitz explained, “we thought it important to have a symbolic and a visible demonstration that this Army was prepared for change and undertaking it.” Switching to the black beret, he said, “gets this Army moving in the direction that’s going to facilitate that change.” I think that’s militarese for what I typed in my first paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/79 "2011-02-20T18:52:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > True Fact: all hats are inherently ridiculous. Dogs can sense this, much like they can sense vampires and terminators. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Long live the day when they give it up and headgear which is non-ceremonial/office and non-combat is either the baseball cap or the boonie hat. Or, you know, people could go without headgear when they don’t need it. I totally disagree with both of these. First of all, hats rock, especially when they are less than ubiquitous (baseball caps are lame). Second, I think that the primary reason for a uniform is to immediately identify a person as having some kind of authority or right to be present in certain places or to take some action. Being as human beings are naturally drawn to the face and head, I think distinctive headgear is critical for anyone in uniform, not just those with the power to employ deadly force (military, law enforcement) or those with critical emergency functions (fire, paramedic), but just about anyone who needs to be immediately recognized: food service workers, garbage collectors, delivery people, anyone. Does anyone know of a source that focuses on the non-combat headgear used in the military over the years (I’m particularly interested in the 1900-present time frame). ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/80 "2011-02-20T19:21:00Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Does anyone know of a source that focuses on the non-combat headgear used in the military over the years (I’m particularly interested in the 1900-present time frame). [Opsprey Publising](http://www.ospreypublishing.com/) has hundreds of books on military history, including uniforms I believe [Brassey’s](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=brassey%27s&x=15&y=20#/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_29?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=brassey's+history+of+uniforms&sprefix=brassey's+history+of+uniforms&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Abrassey's+history+of+uniforms) is now-defunct, but they also had some good titles [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764.md?page=5)