# Why has the U.S. Army ruined the beret? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 18, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764 "2011-02-18T01:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/101 "2011-02-23T06:54:47Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think that uniform looks _extremely_ good. It looks like a police uniform, and police uniforms by and large look good. I don’t think it looks Nazi-like, but I do think it’s very sharp and squared-away. I hope they go with it. A similar uniform, but dark green instead of blue, would look good for the Army. It’s getting there, but I don’t care for that style of collar, or lack thereof. Also, i’m partial to AirForce uniforms being blue. I can’t see the pants for that uniform? Are they tucked into knee high jack boots? Cuz if so, they’d be at home on the Death Star. The uniform a few posts up, Navy? The one with the short sleeves. Awful. Short sleeve dress shirts make a person look like a nerd/IBM worker circa 1960. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/102 "2011-02-23T07:09:44Z")
I think berets look awkward and aesthetically unpleasing with formal uniforms like the Army dress uniform. A dress uniform is all about emphasizing straight lines, creases, angles, and looking sharp. A beret, on the other hand, is floppy, curved and rounded. [These guys,](http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n284/filupe/Miscellaneous/RLIVest.jpg) in my opinion, represent the ideal use for the beret. The handsome Rhodesian infantrymen look aloof, insouciant, and professional at the same time. They aren’t wearing dress uniforms; they’re wearing battle gear, but they look squared-away all the same. Their sleeves are rolled up, the way US Marines do it, though their arms aren’t pumped up the way most American combat troops look nowadays. In short, these beret-wearing Rhodesians don’t look like supersoldiers. They look like young guys who are just doing their job, in a natural way, and the natural shape of the beret fits it perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/103 "2011-02-23T10:41:00Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > We have a number of Army gentlemen here so I hesitate to dump on the uniforms, as I don’t want to sound like a tool. I will say, as a civilian, I think the Army uniform could look better. I think the garrison cap and the “saucer” cap look better than the beret which every soldier now wears, and I also am not too thrilled about [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/US-NEW-CLASS-B-UNIFORM.png) uniform which I have seen numerous times. I really think the Army uniform worn during the 40s and 50s was sharper looking. I do think the dress blues look sharp, but I personally think they would look sharper if the pants matched the jacket. The beret had a lot of significance in that it was worn by the real hoo-ah hoo-ah units, like the Rangers (a unit my father was in during WWII) and so on. But it’s also impractical. It does not shade the eyes or protect the ears. You can get odd sunburns while wearing it. It’s a pain in the proverbial behind. And if you accidentally wash the bloody thing, it’s possible to wind up with a black wool condom with a unit crest on it. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/104 "2011-02-23T12:03:11Z")
A few thoughts: 1. Berets were a lot cooler when you had to earn them in the Army. 1a) In the Air Force, we’re still picky about who gets to wear the beret (or who gets stuck wearing the beret, if you prefer). If you see an Airman wearing a beret in any color other than a shade of blue (cops wear dark blue, Academy cadets wear a lighter blue), he’s probably rather badass. 1. Baseball caps are very functional, but should probably be reserved for garrison units if only because you can’t really wear a helmet with a baseball cap. In the Air Force, we have baseball caps with unit-specific designs, but they are soon to go extinct along with unit insignia once the Battle Dress Uniform is phased out (the flyers will still get to wear patches on their flight suits, but us second class citizens will be relegated to the tigerstripe Airman Battle Uniform, which is not authorized with unit insignia or baseball caps. Unless you’re RED HORSE, in which case the caps are mandatory. And bright cherry red.) 2. The forage cap might be gone, but the [Patrol Cap](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_cap) is basically the same thing, and even the Army has it when they are deployed. 3. I think the flight cap (aka the garrison cap, the overseas cap, the flat cap, the “Piss Cutter”, the sandwich cap, etc.) is great… if you have a job where you need a hat which can be quickly made to go away so you can put on some kind of specialized head gear that you would look ridiculous walking around in otherwise (so basically pilots and vehicle operators). For the rest of us, they can be very very frustrating to hang onto on a windy day. I always give myself a buzz cut on Sunday nights so the stubble on my head will hang onto the cap for me. I kinda wish we could get something similar to a kepi to wear with our blues. 4. Related to that last bit of 4, I think the “Bus Driver” cap looks ridiculous if you are not A) an officer or B) Honor Guard. It’s the most adorable thing ever when you see airmen in service dress wandering around with those goofy things on otherwise. 5. My only complaint about the Army berets is that they have those shiny unit insignias on the front. In the Air Force (and, I’m told, the Marines), we are trained to salute shiny stuff. The Army uniforms confuse us, they do. I once saluted a Private First Class because her unit insignia looked like Captain’s bars. She laughed at me. ☹ 6. In regards to the Army uniform, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the US Army’s traditional colors have always been blue over lighter-blue. The Air Force just kinda _kept_ that color scheme when we broke off, before the Army wandered off into their “Green Phase”. I think it’s great that their service uniform has the colors off enough that we can tell each other apart at a glance. Now if only the Air Force would get a service coat that is A) not horribly uncomfortable and B) doesn’t look like a cheap suit with rank pinned on. 7. Short sleeved service uniforms: I’ve never known anyone to wear them when they were dressing up (ie: awards ceremonies or courts martial), but they are handy if you have to work in them all day (ie: In the Air Force, that would include office workers on Mondays in many places). The long sleeves can get a bit warm, and since we have to wear them closed-collar with a necktie, they don’t ventilate nearly as well as the open-collared fatigues do. I do wish the pants would be more comfortable to sit in, since the people who stand up and run around all day usually don’t ever wear them anyways (unless they are invited to a promotion ceremony or a court martial:D) EDIT: Oh, and the guy with the pants tucked into the boots, that is evidently something the Army Airborne troopers do. It looks ridiculous, but more power to them. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/105 "2011-02-23T13:02:50Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > EDIT: Oh, and the guy with the pants tucked into the boots, that is evidently something the Army Airborne troopers do. It looks ridiculous, but more power to them. They aren’t tucked into the boots - they’re rolled into an elastic band \*over \*the boots. Major difference. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/106 "2011-02-23T13:10:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > They aren’t tucked into the boots - they’re rolled into an elastic band \*over \*the boots. Major difference. Ahh, like how the Air Force used to do with the BDU/ABU pants, I get it. I still think it looks goofy, but then again, I’m not an Airborne trooper, so it doesn’t really affect me. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/107 "2011-02-23T14:10:52Z")
> [@margin](#): > > It does not shade the eyes or protect the ears. Y’all ain’t wearing it right… that upright part with the insignia screws up one of the most basic parts of a beret’s proper design. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/108 "2011-02-23T14:21:16Z")
The real function of a beret is to protect the head from cold and wind, but keeping in plenty of air between the head and the cloth, so that it doesn’t get too hot or sweaty. Depending on the specific design of the beret, the fact that it pretty much touches your head only around the band allows you to avoid hat-head when you take it off. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/109 "2011-02-23T14:48:16Z")
> [@butler1850](#): > > The Tricorne, and bicorne, IMO, as a RevWar reenactor are the most useless items I’ve had to wear. Both shapes interfere with the musket being held shouldered on the left shoulder (opposite of today’s arms), though the tricorne is slightly better, and neither does a thing to shade the wearers eyes from the sun. > > Prior to getting my own rifleman’s hat (a round brimmed hat, with the left side turned up and pinned with a cockade), I was borrowing a bicorne, which was accurate to the time, but not my unit. My eyes hurt all day, and I was constantly fiddling with it’s placement after knocking it about with my musket barrel. The rifleman’s hat is proper to my unit (a loyalist Ranger company), though we didn’t use rifles. It’s a pain to transport, and put down somewhere, but very practical in the field, and does a great job in the rain, by keeping the water off my face. > > Alas, one of the things I’m finding as I learn more about RevWar military equipment, is that much of it was about looks, more than practicality. I imagine that modern military is no different. The beret, except for covering the head, provides no protection from sun, nor rain hitting the face/eyes as far as I can tell. I was actually referring to the [Garrison Style Bicorne Softcover](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrison_cap) or wedge of the Army of the recent past. When looking at the basic iconic, symbological, and chronological profile of war caps in the History of America past to present, it goes- Tricorne (Revo), Kepi (Civil), Garrison Bicorne (WWI+II Korea Vietnam) and now the Beret. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/110 "2011-02-23T15:04:36Z")
So far as I understand, the term “forage cap” does not indicate any particular design. It was originally used to refer to caps worn when soldiers were foraging for feed for horses, but it has been used to refer to any kind of cap suitable for physical or manual labour. For example, in this discussion, both the kepi and the envelope cap, two very different designs, can both be called “forage caps.” ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/111 "2011-02-23T15:14:57Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Personally I like them better than the old doughboy style caps which made their wearers look like fast food workers. > [@devilsknew](#): > > No, the modern Kepi inspired fAast food workers hats. You have it a bit twisted. Symbols are usually appropriated in Chronological Order and Inspired Identity (Political, Real, or Existential). That is my only deep insight about Symbology, it can be such a strange science. > > The hats of our heroes… it boils down to. Sorry that should read the “Garrison Cap” or “doughboy style cap” as you refer to it, not “Kepi”. “The garrison cap inspired fast food workers hats.” > [@devilsknew](#): > > I think it was raspberry beret, if it was worn, she wouldn’t wear it much more. > [@Irishman](#): > > Um, no. The line is about how she would wear the beret, and if the weather was warm, she’d be showing off as much of her body as she could legally expose. As opposed to if it was cold, when she would wear clothes to keep warm. It’s a statement about how sexy she was and how she flaunted it. It makes no sense as a comment about the upkeep of her beret, as if she only wore it on the days it was in good shape or something. (How does the beret go from being in bad shape on one day - worn out - and then in good shape the next? Or are you proposing she would stop wearing the worn out one, and go buy a new one from a second-hand store?) No, actually my line of reasoning was that she was so hip, so chic, debonair, and fashionable that if the cap became worn as an everyday item and fell off the hot topic, she wouldn’t wear it much more. And I think the Army shouldn’t wear it either because it is overworn and has too much baggage. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/112 "2011-02-23T15:24:31Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Y’all ain’t wearing it right… that upright part with the insignia screws up one of the most basic parts of a beret’s proper design. If you wear it according to FM whatever, it’s the most useless piece of shite one can plop on one’s head. ---
**Author:** ![tellmenolies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tellmenolies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellmenolies)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/113 "2011-02-23T15:28:59Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > I always think the traditional beret with that little stem in the middle makes the wearer’s head look like an acorn. 😃 😃 I always thought they looked like French painters. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/114 "2011-02-23T15:40:20Z")
Well, add that to my personal mondegreen list… “Raspberry Beret, and if it was worn, she wouldn’t wear it much more.” ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/115 "2011-02-23T22:25:45Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > “don’t look like a chocolate soldier” > “blouse your pants” Thanks. > [@](#): > > (Of course, needless to say, when it comes to uniforms [this is](http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01472/millitary-uniform_1472713i.jpg) [just wrong](http://media.monstersandcritics.com/galleries/1887291/0184443355085.jpg). And he was among the ones who could best work the style!) Well, I certainly agree wetting yourself isn’t a very good look for a soldier. 😉 Those are full-decoration uniforms carried over from an earlier time and definitely look antiquated and overdone now. That certainly shouldn’t be a daily duty uniform, though as a ceremonial one it has the appropriate grandeur, with all the medals worn and such. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/116 "2011-02-23T22:43:18Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > 1. Baseball caps are very functional, but should probably be reserved for garrison units if only because you can’t really wear a helmet with a baseball cap. > > [snip] > > 1. The forage cap might be gone, but the [Patrol Cap](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_cap) is basically the same thing, and even the Army has it when they are deployed. I think the Patrol Cap is much closer to a baseball cap, has the same functionality. The squarishness of the top changes the look a bit without being ridiculous, like the circular disk on the kepi. I think these are the best general wear hats, with the boonie hat a field functional cap. Berets can add a stylish element, but not the way the Army currently wears them with the divot. That John Wayne pic and the pic of the Rhodesians looks better. The contour is smooth across, sloped on one side but not so large as to block view, and the flash is visible but not overaccented, and certainly not projecting from the rest of the head/hat. > [@](#): > > 1. I think the flight cap (aka the garrison cap, the overseas cap, the flat cap, the “Piss Cutter”, the sandwich cap, etc.) is great… if you have a job where you need a hat which can be quickly made to go away so you can put on some kind of specialized head gear that you would look ridiculous walking around in otherwise (so basically pilots and vehicle operators). For the rest of us, they can be very very frustrating to hang onto on a windy day. I always give myself a buzz cut on Sunday nights so the stubble on my head will hang onto the cap for me. I kinda wish we could get something similar to a kepi to wear with our blues. Yeah, a proper beret is also soft and foldable, and would work better. The Patrol Cap should be easy enough to stuff in a pocket without damaging the hat. > [@](#): > > 1. Related to that last bit of 4, I think the “Bus Driver” cap looks ridiculous if you are not A) an officer or B) Honor Guard. It’s the most adorable thing ever when you see airmen in service dress wandering around with those goofy things on otherwise. Yeah, those are best for Class A and high-ranking officers. Not the bulk of troops or daily wear. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/117 "2011-02-23T22:56:45Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > I was actually referring to the [Garrison Style Bicorne Softcover](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrison_cap) or wedge of the Army of the recent past. When looking at the basic iconic, symbological, and chronological profile of war caps in the History of America past to present, it goes- Tricorne (Revo), Kepi (Civil), Garrison Bicorne (WWI+II Korea Vietnam) and now the Beret. Actually, the U.S. military (what there was of it) wore shakos for the entire first half of the 19th Century, just like every European country. The tricorne was long gone by the War of 1812, and the kepi didn’t show up until the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![kirk1168](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/45deac/32.png) [@kirk1168](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirk1168)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/118 "2011-02-24T01:26:34Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > Why can’t the U.S military go with something like the German WW2 uniforms? I’m not sure it would fly, but they looked good : > > [http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4653948020\_8bf13a8444.jpg](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4653948020_8bf13a8444.jpg) A certain army already has: the Germans… [http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u4/kirk1168/53030689.jpg](http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u4/kirk1168/53030689.jpg) [http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u4/kirk1168/german.jpg](http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u4/kirk1168/german.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/119 "2011-02-24T01:58:39Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Well, I certainly agree wetting yourself isn’t a very good look for a soldier. 😉 […] That certainly shouldn’t be a daily duty uniform, though as a ceremonial one it has the appropriate grandeur, with all the medals worn and such. I dunno, man, I think the Colonel looks just plain goofy in the blue one, that seems to combine the more excessive parts of both Soviet and Mexican parade dress with his own always curious sense of panache. There’s grandeur and then there’s compensating for some inadequacy. Contrast how another, way more civil [yet still preposterous gentleman](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/11/14/article-1085619-027718C7000005DC-642_468x535.jpg) manages to work the ceremonial uniform into a much more proper military look. Or, [this fellow who really did do things to earn all that bling](http://www.mincult.ru/Culture_img%5C18-53-1l.jpg) – though yeah, it helps that it’s a painting so you can fudge how you no longer have the same youthful warrior physique. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764/120 "2011-02-24T08:40:05Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I think the Patrol Cap is much closer to a baseball cap, has the same functionality. The squarishness of the top changes the look a bit without being ridiculous, like the circular disk on the kepi. I think these are the best general wear hats, with the boonie hat a field functional cap. Berets can add a stylish element, but not the way the Army currently wears them with the divot. That John Wayne pic and the pic of the Rhodesians looks better. The contour is smooth across, sloped on one side but not so large as to block view, and the flash is visible but not overaccented, and certainly not projecting from the rest of the head/hat. Worth noting, a big difference between the patrol cap and the baseball cap is how you wear them. The baseball cap, obviously, you simply adjust to your head size and pull all the way down on your head. The patrol cap “perches” higher up on your head, much the same way a fedora or similar nicer hat does. We were taught to wear them so that they angled down slightly with the brim shading down over your eyes (kinda necessary to get any shade benefit because the brim was much shorter than on the baseball caps). If you do it right, the hatband (or the hem, or whatever you call it on a soft cover) is parallel to the ground when the hat is wron, but it takes practice to get right. And the main reason I like the baseball caps is because of the unit insignia on many of them. I’d be fine getting rid of them on duty uniforms entirely if we could get our unit insignia back on the ABUs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-the-u-s-army-ruined-the-beret/571764.md?page=7)