# Why has this guy been sentenced to jail? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2009, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332 "2009-10-02T12:30:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/21 "2009-10-02T15:47:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The article says he was trying to change the songs on his iPod. I’ve never owned or tried to operate an iPod, but aren’t those portable, hand-held devices? Are they ever installed in automobiles? It sounds like this might have been more than just twiddling knobs on the dashboard, but fucking around with a toy that had nothing to do with the car itself, and could have easily waited until he wasn’t driving. Ah, I had in mind a dashboard console but you’re probably right actually. Still, I’d like to know whether changing the song in this case meant pushing a single button to shuffle to the next song, or reading and selecting titles. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/22 "2009-10-02T15:48:39Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > This is what I’m saying. We don’t know that he failed to act with reasonable prudence. Reasonable people prudently adjust things on their dashboard as a matter of course millions of times every day. We don’t know that this guy was doing so _im_prudently. Unless every act of dashboard-fiddling is imprudent. > > To know whether it was imprudent or not, we’d need to know what traffic looked like from his vantage point at the time of the act. We don’t know what it looked like. Those are certainly defenses he could have raised at trial. He decided to go a different way with it and plead guilty to dangerous driving. In so doing, he admitted that his driving was not prudent–it was dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/23 "2009-10-02T16:12:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The article says he was trying to change the songs on his iPod. I’ve never owned or tried to operate an iPod, but aren’t those portable, hand-held devices? Are they ever installed in automobiles? It sounds like this might have been more than just twiddling knobs on the dashboard, but fucking around with a toy that had nothing to do with the car itself, and could have easily waited until he wasn’t driving. iPods are easily plugged into modern car stereos through an auxiliary port or can be connected with an option to broadcast over one of the FM channels that you would then tune to on your car stereo. So yes, they are very often installed into automobiles. To me, an iPod _can_ be more complicated to operate than a car stereo, but it doesn’t have to be. Something like satellite radio certainly is not simple to operate because of the number of channels and options. Some car stereos or aftermarket hardware actually support controlling the iPod through the stereo controls so you don’t have to fiddle directly with the iPod once it is plugged in. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/24 "2009-10-02T16:14:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The article says he was trying to change the songs on his iPod. I’ve never owned or tried to operate an iPod, but aren’t those portable, hand-held devices? Are they ever installed in automobiles? It sounds like this might have been more than just twiddling knobs on the dashboard, but fucking around with a toy that had nothing to do with the car itself, and could have easily waited until he wasn’t driving. > [@Frylock](#): > > Ah, I had in mind a dashboard console but you’re probably right actually. > > Still, I’d like to know whether changing the song in this case meant pushing a single button to shuffle to the next song, or reading and selecting titles. Just FYI: newer car stereos that are iPod capable have a cable which you plug into your iPod. The controls on the stereo then work the iPod, allowing you to forward to the next song or what have you. They also make iPhone compatible car stereos, which have a built in bluetooth so you can talk to someone using the car’s speakers. When you phone call ends, it re-connects to the music function of the iPhone, radio, or CD you were listening to. ETA: **theR** also describes another setup, where the iPod broadcasts over an FM frequancy, and the controls on the iPod are used to change songs, etc. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/25 "2009-10-02T16:36:26Z")
I don’t appreciate that this has been moved to Great Debates, I’m asking a factual question about why, under UK law, this guy has been sentenced to the length of jail sentence he has. I’m not just looking for opinions. I’d like it moved back to GQ please. And I understand what people are saying - of course he shouldn’t have distracted himself. But car accidents happen all the time, and people die from them all the time. All of those accidents must have a reason, and they’ll almost involve at least a minor human error of some sort - but to say that those minor human errors thus constitute “killing someone” and merit years and years in prison? All of us have changed the radio in the car before, or taken our eyes off the road momentarily. Fortunately for most of us those split seconds have no consequences, but in this tragic and unfortunate situation it has. I’m not asking about the morality of it, I want to know the legal facts. Firstly, surely this would mean that almost any car accident will involve lengthy jail sentences for the driver who made an error and caused it? And secondly, even if this is the case, why would this 21-year-old admit changing his MP3 player? I think there’s something more to this case that hasn’t been reported. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/26 "2009-10-02T16:54:39Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > And I understand what people are saying - of course he shouldn’t have distracted himself. Which led directly to the death and to the prison sentence. > [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > But car accidents happen all the time, and people die from them all the time. It’s one thing to run into black ice, or have a kid run out in front of your car. It’s another to act reckelssly and stupidly. You don’t drive a car while drunk. > [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > All of those accidents must have a reason, and they’ll almost involve at least a minor human error of some sort - but to say that those minor human errors thus constitute “killing someone” and merit years and years in prison? It’s not a ‘minor error’ to stop concentrating on driving. It’s not a ‘minor error’ to drive a car while drunk. > [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > All of us have changed the radio in the car before, or taken our eyes off the road momentarily. **No we haven’t.** ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/27 "2009-10-02T16:56:21Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > I don’t appreciate that this has been moved to Great Debates, I’m asking a factual question about why, under UK law, this guy has been sentenced to the length of jail sentence he has. I’m not just looking for opinions. I’d like it moved back to GQ please. GQ answer: [QUOTE=Sentencing Advisory Panel] The Sentencing Advisory Panel has proposed that the Court of Appeal should issue a sentencing guideline on the offence of causing death by dangerous driving. The Panel believes that new guidelines will help sentencers to strike the right balance between the level of culpability of the offender and the magnitude of the harm resulting from the offence. While the outcome of an offence, including the number of people killed, is relevant to the sentence, the primary consideration must always be the culpability of the offender. [/QUOTE] From here, plus link to 56k PDF that presumably contains more info (I haven’t the energy at the moment): [http://www.sentencing-guidelines.gov.uk/advice/index.html#dangerdriving](http://www.sentencing-guidelines.gov.uk/advice/index.html#dangerdriving) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/28 "2009-10-02T16:59:34Z")
[This man](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8287294.stm) has been found guilty of the same offense having claimed that his sneezing caused the crash. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/29 "2009-10-02T17:11:41Z")
The finding of “death by dangerous driving” is beyond question – there’s a good discussion of the guidelines [here](http://www.brake.org.uk/facts/death-by-dangerous-driving-guidelines), and avoidable distraction is listed as a “highly culpable standard of driving.” The maximum sentence is 14 years, and 32 months appears to be only slightly longer than average. The UK is not like the US. No place on Earth is like the US. Social responsibility is taken much more seriously than individual liberty, and this pervades every institution, including the legal system. Specifically with respect to driving laws, for example, the driving age is a year older, the driving tests are more difficult, and penalties for recklessness, as you can see, are more harsh. Also, he’s a bit famous, and they may have wanted to make an example. Fucking around with your entertainment devices, handheld or dash-mounted, is bad driving. Period. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/30 "2009-10-02T17:17:11Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > I don’t appreciate that this has been moved to Great Debates, I’m asking a factual question about why, under UK law, this guy has been sentenced to the length of jail sentence he has. I’m not just looking for opinions. I’d like it moved back to GQ please. > > And I understand what people are saying - of course he shouldn’t have distracted himself. But car accidents happen all the time, and people die from them all the time. All of those accidents must have a reason, and they’ll almost involve at least a minor human error of some sort - but to say that those minor human errors thus constitute “killing someone” and merit years and years in prison? All of us have changed the radio in the car before, or taken our eyes off the road momentarily. Fortunately for most of us those split seconds have no consequences, but in this tragic and unfortunate situation it has. > > I’m not asking about the morality of it, I want to know the legal facts. Firstly, surely this would mean that almost any car accident will involve lengthy jail sentences for the driver who made an error and caused it? And secondly, even if this is the case, why would this 21-year-old admit changing his MP3 player? I think there’s something more to this case that hasn’t been reported. [Here. Causing death by dangerous driving carries a mandatory prison sentence. Maximum is 14 years. It doesn’t say what the minimum is.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_dangerous_driving#Sentencing) A factual answer. Your post seems to be making a lot of what you seem to regard as the injustice of the sentence in Mr. Robertson’s specific case, though, which makes GD an excellent venue for discussing that. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/31 "2009-10-02T17:17:52Z")
> [@glee](#): > > **No we haven’t.** No offense, but I find this unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/32 "2009-10-02T17:55:49Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I’d give him 3 months. No matter how long the sentence is, the person will still be dead. The question is if this driver needs to be removed from society for society’s protection. I say no. A punitive 3 months is enough to make him see straight. This is the correct analysis, with an appropriate focus on the deterrence aspect as well as the retributive aspect. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > OTOH, he ended a man’s life, leaving 5 children fatherless and a woman without her sworn life-partner. She now has sole responsibility for raising those 5 kids, a task that will not end for years and years. > > I’d say 3 months is waaaaaaaay too short, and even 2.5 years isn’t much compared to the years she and her children have to live with altered lives because he didn’t want to listen to whatever song was playing on his iPod. There but the grace of God go you. Let’s hope you never encounter a song on the radio you just can’t stand and have to change the channel while driving. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Yeah - it’s not like a member of _your_ family was killed. Cheap shot. Unsurprisingly enough. ---
**Author:** ![luvrbcs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@luvrbcs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/luvrbcs)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/33 "2009-10-02T17:56:26Z")
I can fully access my ipod on my car radio and it isn’t as simple as changing a radio station. There are playlists, albums and various artists to pick from. There can be a lot of reading and scanning to find what you want. Yes, it can be very similar to texting, distraction wise. I don’t think it can be compared to just switching stations. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/34 "2009-10-02T18:01:17Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > There but the grace of God go you. Let’s hope you never encounter a song on the radio you just can’t stand and have to change the channel while driving. Or at least that if you do, you have the moral luck not to kill anybody. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/35 "2009-10-02T18:50:56Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > There but the grace of God go you. Let’s hope you never encounter a song on the radio you just can’t stand and have to change the channel while driving. It apparently wasn’t anything on the radio, it was on his own Ipod and he presumably loaded it onto the thing himself. He should have pulled over to fiddle with the thing, or if he couldn’t do that safely and legally… suck it up and wait. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/36 "2009-10-02T19:15:47Z")
Sure, all of us have taken our eyes off the road for a second. But very few of us have done so when there was another vehicle close enough for us to have a collision during that time frame. Especially at the kind of speed where you could kill someone. If I’m running down a straight stretch with no traffic around me I’ll adjust the Ipod or put in a different CD or even root around in my purse with one hand. But I _don’t_ do those things when I’m behind someone, or when there is oncoming traffic, or when I’m passing someone or driving in traffic. Because it’s dangerous and stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/37 "2009-10-02T19:27:26Z")
Do people not understand that there is an irreducible risk associated with driving? There are unavoidable accidents. That’s why the state mandates drivers carry liability insurance. This guy is going to prison for nearly three years _because of an unfortunate coincidence._ ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/38 "2009-10-02T19:43:29Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > There are unavoidable accidents. Unless some villain had rigged his iPod to explode unless he selected certain songs in a certain order, with instant detonation if he chose the wrong one, this wasn’t one of them. I take my iPod with me on the road. I either set a long playlist before I start moving, or I fiddle with it at a red light. It doesn’t take long to fiddle with it, but in that time it demands far more attention than fiddling with the radio. The guy fucked up by choosing to mess with it on the highway in traffic, period. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/39 "2009-10-02T19:45:30Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Still, I’d like to know whether changing the song in this case meant pushing a single button to shuffle to the next song, or reading and selecting titles. Considering you could push a button within reach without looking at it, it seems unlikely that he’d merely done that rather than read through titles. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332/40 "2009-10-02T19:53:20Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Unless some villain had rigged his iPod to explode unless he selected certain songs in a certain order, with instant detonation if he chose the wrong one, this wasn’t one of them. I take my iPod with me on the road. I either set a long playlist before I start moving, or I fiddle with it at a red light. It doesn’t take long to fiddle with it, but in that time it demands far more attention than fiddling with the radio. The guy fucked up by choosing to mess with it on the highway in traffic, period. No. It was just a coincidence. He could have been scratching his nose or adjusting his trousers or scanning the sideview mirror. But no, in this case, he was looking at his iPod and people jump to the conclusion that he was grossly reckless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-has-this-guy-been-sentenced-to-jail/512332.md?page=3)