# Why hasn't Feminism destroyed old forms of addressing a lady? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 10, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803 "2002-09-10T15:10:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/21 "2002-09-11T10:55:44Z")
You can be Mrs Doreen Yourlastname if you want. What’s stopping you? ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/22 "2002-09-11T12:56:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UDS \* > \*\*You can be Mrs Doreen Yourlastname if you want. What’s stopping you? \*\* For one thing that was the form for Divorcees at some times. For another, some of us prefer to be correct and not get swept up in the majority trying to change perfectly good forms. Also, except in a social context, it is nobody’s business if I am married. I am Ms. Mylastname and my husband is Mr. Mylastname. I let him have any mail that comes to Mrs. Most of mine comes to Mr. because most companies assume I am male. Pitty we don’t have one Title for both sexes. Why must we know someone’s gender before we meet them? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/23 "2002-09-11T13:21:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Why must we know someone’s gender before we meet them? It seems pretty darn obvious to me. When you are going to meet someone for the 1st time that you’ve never seen before knowing if that person is male or female can avoid some embarassing moments especially when their first name can be used for both M and F. What is the 1st question when someone says they had a baby? Why does it bother you that someone wants to know the gender? The Miss/Mrs thing I can somewhat understand but to just make everyone M. (lastname) or something is not what we want to move towards. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/24 "2002-09-11T14:09:45Z")
Mrs Doreen Husbandslastname was not only the form for divorcees at one time, but also for widows. But so what? If a woman wishes to adopt her husband’s surname, retain her own forename and use a title which indicates that she is married, I see no reason why she should not do this. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/25 "2002-09-11T14:21:13Z")
I knew a teacher who told us we could call her Ms. Stahura instead of Mrs. Stahura, simple because it was less of a tongue-twister. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/26 "2002-09-11T16:40:18Z")
My impression is is that here in the U.S. we have an increasingly hard time with honorifics and titles generally. I can’t remember the last time I socially called any one, or was addressed as _Mr_. Unless I’m mistaken and it’s only a California phenomenon, any use at all of _Ms., Mrs., Miss, Mr._, and to a lesser extent _Sir_ and _Ma’am_ is seen as extremely stilted and awkward. I think part of the issue is that we don’t want to admit that classes and differences of social rank exist. For example, the word _Sir_ used to be used only to address a superior. Now it means just any man whose first name you don’t know. Etiquette books still say that _Waiter!_ is the correct way to address a waiter in a restaurant. Similarly with _Driver_ for a taxi driver. But most people will turn this around nowadays and address these people as _Sir_! I know I sound like a snob. But the way I look at it is, when you go into their place of business they’re there to serve you. Just as if they come into yours the role would be reversed and you would call them _Sir_. So with regard to the OP, it looks to me like _all titles_ are gradually being eliminated, and the introduction of feminist variants has proven to be a moot point. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/27 "2002-09-11T18:05:28Z")
> [@](#): > > You can be Mrs Doreen Yourlastname if you want. What’s stopping you? Well, actually nothing,except the fact that it’s not the way it’s normally done and will cause confusion (The same things that stop me from calling myself **Mr** Doreen Mylastname) Mrs. is normally used with a husband’s last name, not a last name that’s different from his. That form of address will lead to my husband being called by my last name rather than his. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/28 "2002-09-11T20:48:12Z")
But then, it’s _also_ true that “Mrs.” is usually used with the wife’s last name. It just so happens that usually, the husband and wife have the same last name. And the confusiuon of your husband’s last name will come up anyway. Suppose you introduce yourself “Hi, I’m Doreen Smith, and this is my husband Bob”. Folks are liable to think that he’s “Bob Smith”, rather than “Bob Jones”. The only way around this would be to specifically say “Bob Jones”, but you can do that anyway, regardless of what title or titles you use. ---
**Author:** ![Texican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ebca7d/32.png) [@Texican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Texican)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/29 "2002-09-11T22:32:43Z")
“Why has Feminism not succeeded in ridding the world of this silly custom?” Because feminism itself is far more silly than a custom that has to do with proper social interaction. Additionally, you should be taken to task for your use of “lady” in your OP. How dare you to make such a value judgement upon someone’s character. To decent society, “lady” is an honorific that one use’s deliberately, not to identify any female. Your reference to your 8 year old experience, let me apologize for some of America’s lack of proper usage of English. The proper address for a young male is “Master”, not "sir or “mister”. Here in the south, a polite gentleman will address any female that is not a child as “ma’am”. Its called being polite, or having manners, whichever you prefer. Just because the rest of the world seems eager to forget about manners and politeness does not obligate the rest of us to follow suit. I am sure you would find it equally amusing that we backward types would also hold a door for a lady (actually, we tend to do this for everyone) or let a lady precede us on or off the elevator, or offer our seat on public transportation. I imagine that you would also find it strange and bizarre that the ladies ( I use the term deliberately) actually appreciate the gesture. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/30 "2002-09-11T22:55:41Z")
True, the confusion can and does come up anyway. But if I called myself Mrs. Doreen Smith, the Mrs gives the information that I’m married and implies that Smith is my husband’s (or at least a former husband’s name).Now as far as introductions go, you’re right.But I wasn’t thinking in terms of direct introductions.Say, for example, I always sign my notes to my daughter’s Scout leader “Mrs Smith”. When my husband drops her off for the first time, the leader is very likely to call him “Mr Smith”, even though the kid’s name is Jones. (It’s more likely that I’m on my second marriage than that I use Mrs with my birth name- in fact I’ve _never_ heard of anyone using Mrs with their birth name. Those of us who don’t change our name seem to use Ms.) If I sign the note “Ms Smith”, or simply “Doreen Smith” she’s less likely to make that assumption and even if she does, I haven’t given her any misleading information. If I used “Mrs” at work, co-workers would address Christmas cards and such to “Mr and Mrs Smith” rather than as they do to “Doreen Smith and Family”, since they’ve never met my husband, most don’t know even his first name and some don’t even know whether I’m married. ---
**Author:** ![Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mona_Lisa_Simpson)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/31 "2002-09-11T23:53:24Z")
Im reading this with interest because im newly married and was all gung ho to become juliehusbandslastname… then discovered husband isnt too keen on that topic. He perfers me being Juliefoolie… Mrs JulieHusbandslastname has so far been seen only on birthday cards… Of course … 99% of the time I just want to be called My first name only… I dont really get the titles…etiquette is great and Im not against it, but hardly anyone in my immediate circle use it anymore. And even outside that “circle”… I know a lot of “elderly” people (over age 80) who like to be called by their first names… and insist on it. (and these people are actually quite well off, living in a wealthy area, and tend to be of upper crust British backgrounds… people I would have thought more likely to want the courtesy titles.) ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/32 "2002-09-12T00:02:46Z")
Since the male has a title (master or Mr.) based on age, yet a female has her titles based on marital status, I always use Ms. My marital status is irrelevant. I dislike the double standard, and so always use Ms. YMMV 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/33 "2002-09-12T00:20:51Z")
As a feminist, I always go with “Ms.” Always. By default. If a woman expressed a preference for “Miss” or “Mrs.”, I would go according to her wishes. But no one I personally know of has ever expressed such a preference. Not one. There is a very real problem of not knowing how to address a woman when you know neither her name or marital status, as noted above by **UDS**. What to do? I like the African-American/Islamic/Indian practice of addressing all women as “sister” and all men as “brother.” It would easily solve the dilemma, being egalitarian, respectful, and pleasant all at once. But since it hasn’t caught on in whiteboy Western culture, I know it would just bring me puzzled looks if I used it with someone who didn’t expect it. I propose that Western civilization adopt this solution. How about it? Unfortunately, “sister” as a form of address has become associated in the whiteboy mind with old-fashioned tough-guy gangster movies, as a way to address a gun moll. \ Better take my advice and keep that yap of yours shut, sister. Unless ya want it shut for ya. \ ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/34 "2002-09-12T00:36:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by k2dave \* > **When you are going to meet someone for the 1st time that you’ve never seen before knowing if that person is male or female can avoid some embarassing moments especially when their first name can be used for both M and F.** Embarrassing moments? What in the world are you going to do on the first meeting that could possibly be embarrassing that you might or might not do based on the person’s gender? I don’t generally engage in foreplay on the first encounter – at least not for the first fifteen minutes or so. What kind of social life do you lead??? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/35 "2002-09-12T01:54:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > If a woman expressed a preference for “Miss” or “Mrs.”, I would go according to her wishes. But no one I personally know of has ever expressed such a preference. Not one. Then allow me to be the first. I _do_ prefer to be called Mrs. Remarkably enough, I also consider myself a feminist. The other funny thing is when the husband goes down to the airport with me and is referred to as “Mr. Broomstick” rather than Mr. HisLastName. You know what? We just have a good laugh over it (now - the first couple times something like that happened he did freak a little). Yes, we have preferences, but it’s nothing to get into a shouting match over. Right now society is going through a transition in regards to honorifics/titles. Until we arrive at a consistent solution (which may be anywhere from going back to the old forms to going to something totally gender and age neutral) there will be mix ups. Is it worth having a tizzy over? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/36 "2002-09-12T01:54:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > If a woman expressed a preference for “Miss” or “Mrs.”, I would go according to her wishes. But no one I personally know of has ever expressed such a preference. Not one. Then allow me to be the first. I _do_ prefer to be called Mrs. Remarkably enough, I also consider myself a feminist. The other funny thing is when the husband goes down to the airport with me and is referred to as “Mr. Broomstick” rather than Mr. HisLastName. You know what? We just have a good laugh over it (now - the first couple times something like that happened he did freak a little). Yes, we have preferences, but it’s nothing to get into a shouting match over. Right now society is going through a transition in regards to honorifics/titles. Until we arrive at a consistent solution (which may be anywhere from going back to the old forms to going to something totally gender and age neutral) there will be mix ups. Is it worth having a tizzy over? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/37 "2002-09-12T01:56:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > If a woman expressed a preference for “Miss” or “Mrs.”, I would go according to her wishes. But no one I personally know of has ever expressed such a preference. Not one. Then allow me to be the first. I _do_ prefer to be called Mrs. Remarkably enough, I also consider myself a feminist. The other funny thing is when the husband goes down to the airport with me and is referred to as “Mr. Broomstick” rather than Mr. HisLastName. You know what? We just have a good laugh over it (now - the first couple times something like that happened he did freak a little). Yes, we have preferences, but it’s nothing to get into a shouting match over. Right now society is going through a transition in regards to honorifics/titles. Until we arrive at a consistent solution (which may be anywhere from going back to the old forms to going to something totally gender and age neutral) there will be mix ups. Is it worth having a tizzy over? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/38 "2002-09-12T01:56:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > If a woman expressed a preference for “Miss” or “Mrs.”, I would go according to her wishes. But no one I personally know of has ever expressed such a preference. Not one. Then allow me to be the first. I _do_ prefer to be called Mrs. Remarkably enough, I also consider myself a feminist. The other funny thing is when the husband goes down to the airport with me and is referred to as “Mr. Broomstick” rather than Mr. HisLastName. You know what? We just have a good laugh over it (now - the first couple times something like that happened he did freak a little). Yes, we have preferences, but it’s nothing to get into a shouting match over. Right now society is going through a transition in regards to honorifics/titles. Until we arrive at a consistent solution (which may be anywhere from going back to the old forms to going to something totally gender and age neutral) there will be mix ups. Is it worth having a tizzy over? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/39 "2002-09-12T02:51:48Z")
As you wish, **Mrs.** Broomstick. As you wish, **Mrs.** Broomstick. As you wish, **Mrs.** Broomstick. As you wish, **Mrs.** Broomstick. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/40 "2002-09-12T08:07:27Z")
The interaction of the Miss/Ms/Mrs options and the practice, sometimes but not always followed, of a woman adopting her husband’s name on marriage creates a bewildering variety of options, and my suggestion would be that it is unwise to draw any conclusions about a woman’s maritial status or the name of her husband (if any) from the name and title that she chooses to use. The one exception to this rule is that if she uses the title “Mrs” you can fairly safely assume that she is, or has been, married. But that’s all. A wider range of conclusions could be drawn if, but only if, society adopted and observed uniform rules regarding both the name and title of all women, effectively leaving women with only one option in any circumstances as to what name or title to use. This must mean the elimination of either “Ms” or “Mrs/Miss”. I can see no arguments for restricting a woman’s freedom of choice in this way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803.md?page=3)