# Why hasn't Feminism destroyed old forms of addressing a lady? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 10, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803 "2002-09-10T15:10:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/41 "2002-09-12T09:42:21Z")
Apologies for the multi-post - it seems the hamsters have struck again. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/42 "2002-09-12T10:48:43Z")
i’m Ms. just because i don’t like Miss. makes me feel about 5. and, god willing, should i ever become a surgeon (who are normally known as Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms and not as Dr) i will be Ms even if i AM married and have taken his name. because i think that as a title Ms when used by a professional carries more authority than Mrs. it’s a personal thing, but i think it’s valid. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/43 "2002-09-12T11:10:38Z")
Curiously, one refinement of the already quite complex conventions about women’s titles used to be that a married woman who continued to practice her profession was often known as “Miss” in professional life. Thus, say, Rita Hayworth was “Miss Hayworth” on the studio and on set, however many times she married. For all I know, this convention is still observed in certain professions. I don’t know about surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/44 "2002-09-12T15:56:00Z")
**Irishgirl** , surgeons in the United States go by “doctor” as well as physicians. Maybe you could start the practice over there. ---
**Author:** ![chm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@chm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/45 "2002-09-12T16:02:48Z")
cdhostage invited comments on other languages, so I’ll chime in. I grew up in Québec, and the traditional titles for women are Madame and Mademoiselle (Mme. and Mlle.) for married and unmarried women respectively. Over my lifetime, Mlle. has pretty much disappeared. All adult women are Mme. This came about the time that the formerly obligatory name change for women on marriage stopped (and was reversed for all people now living), and now one can not legally change one’s name just because one marries. I recieve a bit of mail addressed to Mlle, but I think most of it is related to French stock I own. My magazine subscription cards only have options of M. and Mme., as do my banking forms, credit card applications, and all other junk mail I had yesterday. I presume some people still make the distinction, but it’s safe to address any woman as Mme. In english, I answer to whichever title is used without correction. Miss, Ms., Mrs, doesn’t matter to me unless someone is trying to offend. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/46 "2002-09-12T16:09:43Z")
[Hijack] All medical practitioners in Ireland start off as “Dr”. However, once they reach a certain level of seniority (an appointment as a consultant) a distinction emerges. Surgeons become “Mr” or “Ms” or “Mrs” or “Miss” again, while physicians continue to be “Dr” (unless, in either case, they become “Prof”, but that’s another matter). Because “Mr” or “Ms” or the like is an indicator of seniority and status for surgeons, its use is unlikely to be abandoned. Just to complicate matters further, dental surgeons and veterinary surgeons are always “Mr” or “Ms” or the like, regardless of seniority. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/47 "2002-09-12T17:30:45Z")
> [@](#): > > (and was reversed for all people now living), and now one can not legally change one’s name just because one marries. What!!? ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/48 "2002-09-12T19:34:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by k2dave \* > \*\* > > It seems pretty darn obvious to me. When you are going to meet someone for the 1st time that you’ve never seen before knowing if that person is male or female can avoid some embarassing moments especially when their first name can be used for both M and F. What is the 1st question when someone says they had a baby? Why does it bother you that someone wants to know the gender? The Miss/Mrs thing I can somewhat understand but to just make everyone M. (lastname) or something is not what we want to move towards. \*\* I find this completely incomprehensible. Why would gender be even the least bit relevant? With babies, gender is completely irrelevant, and I’ve always been astonished at the people who seem not to be able to interact with an infant whose gender they are unsure of. A baby is a baby. In the business world, gender is also irrelevant. That person selling you insurance–I assure you, their genitals don’t have anything to do with the policy you’re buying. The person ringing you out at the grocery store, the waiter setting your lunch down in front of you, the surgeon taking your appendix out, the lawyer preparing your case for court–their genitals don’t enter into the transaction at all. (Or we’ll hope not, for the sake of sanitation.) Once you’re at the personal level, gender can be very relevant–sex and reprodution are, of course, matters where gender makes a difference. But it’s not very common to not know the gender of someone you’re planning to have sex with, or have a baby with. And it’s a bit odd, to my mind, to plan on having sex with someone you’ve never met. Frankly, I don’t see why a genderless form of address would be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![chm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@chm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/49 "2002-09-12T22:09:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by acsenray \* > \*\* > > What!!? \*\* Sorry, I just put that as context. The civil code was updated (in the early '80s, I can look for a date if you’d like), and the provision where married women’s family names became those of their husbands was removed. When the civil code was changed, it was as if the name changes had never happened. I can’t give a reason other than consistency. One can’t change one’s name in Québec unless one’s name is very difficult to spell or likely to be ridiculed, or in the case of an adoption. The government at the time didn’t see why marriage should be a special case. Of course, as long as you’re not doing it to decieve someone, you can still sign your name whatever you want. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/50 "2002-09-13T04:21:34Z")
> [@](#): > > I find this completely incomprehensible. Why would gender be even the least bit relevant? If nothing else, because the personal pronouns in English are gendered. Suppose I’m scheduled to meet with “Frank Smith” at his office. I go to his office, and ask the receptionist “I’m looking for Frank Smith. Is he available?”. Now suppose that I’m supposed to meet Robin Jones. I ask the receptionist “I’m looking for Robin Jones. Is he in?”. Meanwhile, Robin hears me from the next room, and depending on her mood, she’s either upset or amused. Of course, one might argue that we ought to have unisex personal pronouns. But realistically, that’s not something that’s going to happen any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Motog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Motog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motog)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/51 "2002-09-13T05:47:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by k2dave \* > \*\*OK even if it was invented at the turn of the last century am I to assume Mistress was used before it for unknown martial status? \*\* Not quite. From [World Wide Words](http://www.quinion.com/words/topicalwords/tw-mis1.htm): > [@](#): > > Mistress was once a straightforward word for a woman who had control over servants or was the acknowledged head of a household, or was the possessor or owner of something. The word was just the feminine form of master (both words came to use from Old French and are not recorded until the fifteenth century)… > But from its earliest recorded use it had a sense also of ‘a woman who illicitly occupies the place of a wife’, to quote the OED. When Queen Elizabeth I, who disapproved of the clergy marrying, met the wife of one of Dr Carey’s predecessors, she is reported to have said to her, “Madam I may not call you; mistress I am ashamed to call you; and so I know not what to call you”. ---
**Author:** ![Motog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Motog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motog)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/52 "2002-09-13T05:57:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amarinth \* > \*\*Miss, Mrs., and Ms. are all abbreviations of Mistress and have evolved into the current forms and meanings over the years. > Ms. has been used at least since the turn of the last century, and is not something invented in the 60’s. \*\* Have you got a cite for that? Because I’ve got several that say that it is neither an abbreviation of mistress nor was it from the turn of last century, starting with The Merriam-Webster Dictionary that says: Main Entry: Ms. Pronunciation: 'miz Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural Mss. or Mses. /'mi-z&z/ **Etymology: probably blend of Miss and Mrs.** **Date: 1949** (my bolding) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803/53 "2002-09-13T07:25:18Z")
> [@](#): > > **A man is called “Mr.” (Mister) all his life.** Well, somebody had to call it… BAND NAME!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-feminism-destroyed-old-forms-of-addressing-a-lady/127803.md?page=2)