# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 107
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2121 "2012-03-27T17:44:26Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Here’s something that occurred to me. Zimmerman is represented by a lawyer, and he’s getting absolutely flayed by the media and a negative public image. > > If his had had been slammed _repeatedly_ into the ground, if his nose had been broken, if he was battered and bloodied and looked the part, someone would have taken pictures. His eyes would be black from the broken nose, his hair would be matted with blood. If his lawyer was worth a shit, those pictures would be _everywhere_ by now. “Look what your sweet and innocent 17 year old did to my poor client!” It would be a total game changer. I sure that the police do have photographs of Zimmerman. Maybe they will be next in weeks leak. 😉 Zimmerman apparently didn’t get a lawyer until weeks later and based on what the lawyer said, he hasn’t even met Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2122 "2012-03-27T17:46:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Don’t you mean, “this is why you don’t \*win \*fights”? Because it seems to me that regardless of who started the fight, whoever is getting his ass kicked might suddenly find himself overwhelmed and then fear for his life. I assumed we were talking about a fight the person getting shot started. Of course you don’t have the right to shoot someone because they are defending themselves. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2123 "2012-03-27T17:46:51Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > … Gunshot wounds to the chest are rarely immediately incapacitating unless the victim is struck in the spine. It is almost a guarantee that Martin did not die “instantly”. … Funny that the point of aim when hunting is the chest, entirely because that’s where the heart and lungs are. How long do you think you’d live without an [aorta](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Aorta_scheme_noTags.svg)? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2124 "2012-03-27T17:55:14Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Me personally? In that situation, if I had an 80 lb weight advantage on the guy, I’d draw the line when I saw a knife or gun. I’m young and outweigh my opponent by a substantial amount, I’m not fearing for my life, even if he does crack my head against the sidewalk. I’ve fallen off my bike before, didn’t die. I’m thinking that Martin was a lot heavier than 140 lbs. That doesn’t sound right for 6’3" and he doesn’t look that skinny in the picture in the picture with the gold teeth. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2125 "2012-03-27T17:55:20Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I assumed we were talking about a fight the person getting shot started. Of course you don’t have the right to shoot someone because they are defending themselves. And we don’t know who started the fight from the information currently out there. Even if the part of Zimmerman’s story where he says Martin “came back” is true, that doesn’t mean that the rest of it is true- or that Martin started the fight. That’s mainly what I’m saying- we don’t know who started the fight, we don’t know exactly what happened during the fight, and we don’t know the exact circumstances when Martin was shot. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2126 "2012-03-27T17:56:55Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I’m thinking that Martin was a lot heavier than 140 lbs. That doesn’t sound right for 6’3" and he doesn’t look that skinny in the picture in the picture with the gold teeth. Where is the picture with the gold teeth? Was this one of the Stormfront pictures- supposedly of Martin, but they turned out to be pictures of others selected to look more threatening? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2127 "2012-03-27T17:59:00Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I assumed we were talking about a fight the person getting shot started. Of course you don’t have the right to shoot someone because they are defending themselves. And what if both of them think they’re defending themselves? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2128 "2012-03-27T17:59:09Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Fine, but we have no evidence that Martin was casing the neighborhood, prying open windows, or otherwise getting caught in the act of a burglary, so if we’re going to stick to the evidence, self-serving or otherwise, maybe we can drop this burglary nonsense? True. It’s entirely a supposition. But as Fotheringay-Phipps sez “\*You and others who make this and similar points are all mistaken. The point is that there is a lot we don’t know, and we’re guessing about that. And the character of the people involved can sway the odds. How likely is it that TM would jump GZ and slam his head into the ground? If he’s some angelic school kid, very unlikely. If he’s a guy with a history of burglary, vandalism, and drug use, then much more likely.”\* Now, legally? Well, Bricker is the expert here, I agree. But if this gets to the GJ, one or more of them may make this supposition. And, it’s something that Zimmerman may say: “It looked to me like the kid was trying windows or casing the units”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2129 "2012-03-27T18:01:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Now, legally? Well, Bricker is the expert here, I agree. But if this gets to the GJ, one or more of them may make this supposition. And, it’s something that Zimmerman may say: “It looked to me like the kid was trying windows or casing the units”. And may his credibility be called into question or does the Florida statute require us to take him at his word? For example, if that were the case, why wouldn’t he have said so while speaking to the 911 dispatcher? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2130 "2012-03-27T18:04:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Maybe – just maybe – if you could show Martin had a prior adjudicated conviction for burglary, or even possession of burglary tools, you could argue that this makes it more likely he’d attack – even though burglary is not a crime of violence. There’s no clear cut line between burglers and people who commit crimes of violence. I would agree with you if we were talking about tax evasion. But I’ll bet people with histories of burglary are far far more likely to attack people who they think are stalking them (or whatever) than average. > [@](#): > > But the allegation doesn’t even come close. Martin was never given an opportunity to test the accusations against him. The police were never called; no charges were filed, no putative owner of the jewelry ever identified. In short, its highly speculative to even say that Martin had committed a single crime as a result of this evidence. You want to conclude that he not only DID, absolutely, commit a crime then, but that this fact makes it more likely he committed an unrelated crime in this case. No, I don’t want to say that he “DID, absolutely”. I say that he probably did. We’re not in the jury box here, and this is all speculation. In that context, this type of background info is highly relevant, and your claim that it has absolutely no bearing in completely incorrect. [Equally relevant are the prior charges - ultimately dropped - against GZ for an altercation with a police officer, IIRC.] ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2131 "2012-03-27T18:10:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the allegation doesn’t even come close. Martin was never given an opportunity to test the accusations against him. The police were never called; no charges were filed, no putative owner of the jewelry ever identified. In short, its highly speculative to even say that Martin had committed a single crime as a result of this evidence. You want to conclude that he not only DID, absolutely, commit a crime then, but that this fact makes it more likely he committed an unrelated crime in this case. Martin said that got the jewelry from a “friend”. That sounds like receiving stolen goods. The school sent the jewelry to the police. The fact that the police don’t bother to pursue larceny cases doesn’t imply anything about Martin’s guilt or innocence, but common sense suggest that 17 year old boys don’t walk around with a bunch of woman’s jewelry that they can’t explain. It isn’t proof of a felony, but it does suggest that his mother was lying about her son’s background. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2132 "2012-03-27T18:11:31Z")
Good points. In fact he may well now be changing his story due to leaks in the case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2133 "2012-03-27T18:13:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There’s no clear cut line between burglers and people who commit crimes of violence. I would agree with you if we were talking about tax evasion. But I’ll bet people with histories of burglary are far far more likely to attack people who they think are stalking them (or whatever) than average. > > No, I don’t want to say that he “DID, absolutely”. I say that he probably did. > > We’re not in the jury box here, and this is all speculation. In that context, this type of background info is highly relevant, and your claim that it has absolutely no bearing in completely incorrect. > > [Equally relevant are the prior charges - ultimately dropped - against GZ for an altercation with a police officer, IIRC.] Not only were those charges dropped, but they were expunged. This is a process that requires a finding by a judge (at least in my state) that the arrest was a manifest injustice. It’s not simply a case of, “Oh we couldn’t prove the charges.” To expunge a record, you have to prove that the charge should never have been brought, that it was a manifest injustice. In light of that, how can you count it again Zimmerman? And with Martin, the same question applies. He was never even charged! How can you rely on anything about that story, when he never had the slightest chance to confront the witnesses against him and test the truth of the accusation? You’re right when you say this is all speculation. So why do it? Why can’t you simply sit back and wait for the full report? Why must you craft a story with Martin as the villain? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2134 "2012-03-27T18:21:13Z")
You make some good points, Bricker. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2135 "2012-03-27T18:21:41Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Martin said that got the jewelry from a “friend”. That sounds like receiving stolen goods. The school sent the jewelry to the police. The fact that the police don’t bother to pursue larceny cases doesn’t imply anything about Martin’s guilt or innocence, but common sense suggest that 17 year old boys don’t walk around with a bunch of woman’s jewelry that they can’t explain. It isn’t proof of a felony, but it does suggest that his mother was lying about her son’s background. You don’t see the problem here? A suggests B. B suggests C. C suggests D. But that doesn’t mean that A suggests D. There’s no transitive property of inference. Each succeeding ad hoc inference weakens the chain. It _sounds like_ stolen goods. It’s not _proof_ of a felony. Therefore, he’s more likely to have assaulted Zimmerman? No. You cannot pile ad hoc assumption upon ad hoc assumption with validity. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2136 "2012-03-27T18:22:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not only were those charges dropped, but they were expunged. This is a process that requires a finding by a judge (at least in my state) that the arrest was a manifest injustice. It’s not simply a case of, “Oh we couldn’t prove the charges.” To expunge a record, you have to prove that the charge should never have been brought, that it was a manifest injustice. > > In light of that, how can you count it again Zimmerman? I wasn’t aware that it had been expunged. [FWIW, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong about what’s needed to have a record expunged. I’m not a legal expert, but I did closely follow the story of a former president of the Society of Actuaries whose expunged record of conviction for a violent crime was revealed, and I don’t think the initial charges were alleged to be a manifest injustice. But I’m not inclined to argue this point.] > [@](#): > > And with Martin, the same question applies. He was never even charged! How can you rely on anything about that story, when he never had the slightest chance to confront the witnesses against him and test the truth of the accusation? There are a lot of things that are true without people being charged for them. Based on my experience in life, it’s possible that the whole burglary thing was some sort of misunderstanding, but it’s more likely that he was guilty but that based on the lack of hard evidence and the fact that he was being disciplined at the time for other things, no one bothered to prosecute for it. > [@](#): > > You’re right when you say this is all speculation. > > So why do it? 90% of this thread is all speculation, and yet, it’s over 40 pages. What’s the point of it? It’s an interesting discussion, that’s all. What do _you_ think the point is? > [@](#): > > Why can’t you simply sit back and wait for the full report? Why must you craft a story with Martin as the villain? See above. ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2137 "2012-03-27T18:23:04Z")
I made a [map](http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=217828638806042443821.0004bc2f8dc88681cedc1) showing where Zimmerman likely parked his truck. It is based on Zimmerman’s phone call to police and this [CNN video](http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2012/03/15/ac-mattingly-trayvon-martin-shtg-fol.cnn). If Martin starts running from near the mailboxes, it is about 0.2 miles by road to his house. If he starts running from the crosswalk on the east side of that stretch of Twin Trees and takes the sidewalk all the way to the back door of the house, it is as little as 200 yards. Zimmerman says Martin starts running at the 2:07 mark. The call ends at the 4:11 mark. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2138 "2012-03-27T18:25:11Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Funny that the point of aim when hunting is the chest, entirely because that’s where the heart and lungs are. > > How long do you think you’d live without an [aorta](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Aorta_scheme_noTags.svg)? > > CMC fnord! Like all of the deer I’ve hunted, long enough to take a few steps. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2139 "2012-03-27T18:27:31Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I wasn’t aware that it had been expunged. > > [FWIW, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong about what’s needed to have a record expunged. I’m not a legal expert, but I did closely follow the story of a former president of the Society of Actuaries whose expunged record of conviction for a violent crime was revealed, and I don’t think the initial charges were alleged to be a manifest injustice. But I’m not inclined to argue this point.] Good choice: > [@Code of Virginia § 19.2-392.2. Expungement of police and court records](#): > > A. If a person is charged with the commission of a crime and > > 1. Is acquitted, or > > 2. A nolle prosequi is taken or the charge is otherwise dismissed, including dismissal by accord and satisfaction pursuant to § 19.2-151, or > > 3. Is granted an absolute pardon for the commission of a crime for which he has been unjustly convicted, he may file a petition setting forth the relevant facts and requesting expungement of the police records and the court records relating to the charge. > > . > . > . > F. After receiving the criminal history record information from the CCRE, the court shall conduct a hearing on the petition. If the court finds that the continued existence and possible dissemination of information relating to the arrest of the petitioner causes or may cause circumstances which constitute a manifest injustice to the petitioner, it shall enter an order requiring the expungement of the police and court records relating to the charge. > [@](#): > > There are a lot of things that are true without people being charged for them. Based on my experience in life, it’s possible that the whole burglary thing was some sort of misunderstanding, but it’s more likely that he was guilty but that based on the lack of hard evidence and the fact that he was being disciplined at the time for other things, no one bothered to prosecute for it. > > 90% of this thread is all speculation, and yet, it’s over 40 pages. What’s the point of it? It’s an interesting discussion, that’s all. > > What do _you_ think the point is? I wish I knew. I entered this thread to decry people who were posting how certain Zimmerman’s guilt was. Along the way, I have also taken to task people who are pointing out how certain Martin’s guilt is. I have no idea why people feel compelled to announce, with confidence, conclusions that they cannot possibly know to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2140 "2012-03-27T18:53:02Z")
> [@treis](#): > > But it’s clear that both people could have easily avoided it. That isn’t at all clear. A major point here is that Martin _did not know_ why he was being followed. He didn’t have enough information to know how likely a conflict would be if he asked Zimmerman why he was following him. He was almost certainly scared, yes. But I’ve been scared before, faced my fear, and found it had a reasonable explanation. Zimmerman could have had a decent reason for following him. Zimmerman, on the other hand, was intentionally following a suspected messed up criminal while armed, and reasonably must have known he was unnecessarily creating a dangerous situation in which someone could be killed. Only one of the two knew for a fact he was creating a dangerous situation. Also, Martin was being followed by a truck at first, and could have gotten off the road to wait for it to be safe. That could be why he didn’t get home. From what I can tell, Zimmerman claims that he got out of his truck to check a street sign. If that was near where Martin was, I could see him asking “why are you following me?” On the other hand, if the body was NOT found near the truck, it calls into question Zimmerman’s story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=106) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=108)