# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/221 "2012-03-14T15:27:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Say a cop pulls me over and a kilo of coke tumbles out of the glove compartment while I search for my registration. If I deliver an Oscar worthy performance while proclaiming innocence, should the cop be swayed by passionate tears and let me go? Not the best analogy, since posession of narcotics- the pure physical fact- is automatically a felony barring the most extraordinary affirmative defense (“I am a licensed representative of a pharmaceutical firm transporting this shipment of cocaine to a medical supply house; here’s my paperwork”). Whereas shooting someone dead- the pure physical fact- in FL is not, in and of itself, a crime; although 99.99% of the time the circumstances will qualify as murder, manslaughter or unnecessary homicide. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/222 "2012-03-14T15:27:06Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > The cites that **Martin Hyde** say nothing at all about probable cause. I suspect the two of you might be a little confused about the issue. > > Perhaps you’d be more convinced by hearing this from someone on your own side: **Bricker** , if Zimmerman were arrested on the evidence known to us, would there be a Fourth Amendment violation? That is to say, do the police, if they know what we know, lack probable cause to arrest? I’ve actually said I think the police could have arrested him, I’ve never said they _couldn’t_, only that I think they exercised judgment to not arrest him, and then I’ve expanded on the reasons. It’s true the police do not have to disprove self-defense to justify an arrest, but Chief Lee has indicated their investigation has _corroborated self-defense_ and that means his investigator views the incident as a justifiable homicide. Sure, they could still arrest I imagine, but I think what the Chief is saying is since they have concluded it is a justifiable homicide _in their opinion_ they are not going to arrest him. It is the _police opinion_ that the self-defense story is credible which means essentially there is no crime. (This has been linked to in multiple articles.) The Chief also made it very clear that the State’s Attorney is the final say on this, and _if_ they accept the police opinion there will be no charges. Chief Lee even says they may or may not, because he’s just saying in the opinion of whichever officer(s) that investigated, it was self defense so they chose not to arrest. If police investigate a shooting and find it likely it was self-defense, would you expect them to make an arrest? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/223 "2012-03-14T15:51:38Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > The cites that **Martin Hyde** say nothing at all about probable cause. I suspect the two of you might be a little confused about the issue. > > Perhaps you’d be more convinced by hearing this from someone on your own side: **Bricker** , if Zimmerman were arrested on the evidence known to us, would there be a Fourth Amendment violation? That is to say, do the police, if they know what we know, lack probable cause to arrest? Not confused at all. I have no idea what exactly you want us to say. This is not the stand. If you have a point put it in one post instead of trying to drag it out of me. Its _generally_ not considered a violation of the 4th amendment if the police acted in good faith with the information they have at the time. We try to do a lot more than simply not violate constitutional rights. If I was investigating this with the information I actually have now I would not have enough to make any kind of decision. If I had all the information that the actual investigators have I would have enough to make a decision. They have the autopsy, Zimmerman’s statement, possibly witness statement, forensics, etc.. Since I don’t have that I don’t know for sure if I would reach the same conclusion. If it went down the way I am _assuming_ it did I would feel confident I had enough to arrest and probably convict with a charge of manslaughter. But that is in my jurisdiction. In Florida there is no duty to retreat. The Florida manslaughter statute is different and self defense is worded different in their statutes too. Unless we get an expert in _Florida_ criminal law here we can just speculate using how it is written. The OP was asking why he hasn’t been arrested. Some of us tried to answer without making a judgement as to his guilt. As Martin Hyde said way back in post #9 > [@](#): > > There are a lot of scenarios I can see where this neighborhood watch guy would be acting in a manner that would fit the definition of self defense under many American jurisdictions. There are also many scenarios I can see where it is everything from cold blooded murder to some other lesser crime. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/224 "2012-03-14T15:52:28Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Not the best analogy, since posession of narcotics- the pure physical fact- is automatically a felony barring the most extraordinary affirmative defense (“I am a licensed representative of a pharmaceutical firm transporting this shipment of cocaine to a medical supply house; here’s my paperwork”). Okay, how about we try rape. (oh noes!) An woman says a guy–a complete stranger–accosted her in an alley and raped her. Her genitalia shows signs of injury plus she has bruises around her wrists. Her skirt is ripped as well. There’s no immediate evidence that suggests her credibility is poor. When interviewed by the police, the guy she accuses fully admits to having sex with her. He also doesn’t deny causing her injuries or ripping her skirt. But he swears with a straight face that it was 100% consensual. He had a few scratches on his back but he insists these wounds were due to her being a frisky lover, just like he is. Surveillance video also shows the guy crouched in the bushes beside her house 10 min before the alleged rape took place. Now. Should his Oscar-winning performance keep him out of jail, just because the cop is swayed by his ardent insistence of innocence? How much should his denial of guilt factor into probable cause, since this guy has all the incentive in the world to lie? Please note, I purposely structured this scenario so that it mirrors Martin’s shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/225 "2012-03-14T16:10:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Okay, how about we try rape. (oh noes!) > > An woman says a guy–a complete stranger–accosted her in an alley and raped her. Her genitalia shows signs of injury plus she has bruises around her wrists. Her skirt is ripped as well. There’s no immediate evidence that suggests her credibility is poor. > > When interviewed by the police, the guy she accuses fully admits to having sex with her. He also doesn’t deny causing her injuries or ripping her skirt. But he swears with a straight face that it was 100% consensual. He had a few scratches on his back but he insists these wounds were due to her being a frisky lover, just like he is. > > Surveillance video also shows the guy crouched in the bushes beside her house 10 min before the alleged rape took place. > > Now. Should his Oscar-winning performance keep him out of jail, just because the cop is swayed by his ardent insistence of innocence? How much should his denial of guilt factor into probable cause, since this guy has all the incentive in the world to lie? > > Please note, I purposely structured this scenario so that it mirrors Martin’s shooting. It is not comparable. Self defense is a clearly defined legal concept. And it in no way mirrors this incident. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/226 "2012-03-14T16:10:46Z")
I’ll be honest **you with the face** that is the most inaccurate, insulting, and misleading analogy I’ve ever seen. That isn’t analogous to the Zimmerman shooting at all and I sincerely hope no one even affords that scenario any response since it is patently absurd to compare it to the Zimmerman shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/227 "2012-03-14T16:16:42Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > The OP was asking why he hasn’t been arrested. Some of us tried to answer without making a judgement as to his guilt. As Martin Hyde said way back in post #9 Yeah, as is typical on a message board things got way off track in legal discussions about what would happen in a trial and all that (and I’m guilty of at least being one of the people who moved the discussion in that direction.) What it really boils down to is the OP wanted opinions on why Zimmerman wasn’t arrested. My opinion was that the police either did not believe that the case against Zimmerman was strong enough for a conviction (and thus did not want to waste the resources of the State’s Attorney), or they did not have probable cause to arrest. Later, I read the articles in which Chief Lee said they lacked evidence of a crime. Later still, I read articles in which Chief Lee said they had evidence to corroborate Zimmerman’s account of the incident. I don’t know if that is because the Chief has given multiple press conferences or if he gave one big press conferences and different news outlets are all reporting on different snippets of the conference itself. That made it a little different than the original thought I had in which police were saying they didn’t have evidence of a crime. But either way it boils down to “he wasn’t arrested because in the judgment of the police an arrest wasn’t warranted.” Self-defense law, whether or not police would arrest in other cases, the idea that it’s “foolish to accept someone’s statement” when they are explaining why they shot someone and et al. is all of little importance to the matter of why they didn’t arrest. They didn’t arrest because they exercised their lawful discretion and chose not to do so, and we’ve laid out the different set of reasons that they might have for that. The other alternative is “they didn’t arrest because they are racists who think Trayvon was a criminal because he was black and/or they were predisposed to be lenient to Zimmerman.” But that alternative was obviously an undercurrent of the whole thread, I’m not saying that isn’t a possibility but just trying to put forth legitimate reasons that police don’t arrest people. Believe it or not this isn’t the first shooting in which the shooter is the only witness in which police don’t take the guy away in handcuffs. I have no idea on the percentages, but I’ve personally heard of several situations in which there is a shooting with the shooter as the only witness and the shooter doesn’t get arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/228 "2012-03-14T16:34:32Z")
Here is a newer Orlando Sentinel article I just read which is pretty balanced on some of the issues. Some of the quotes: > [@](#): > > Prosecutors, including State Attorney Norm Wolfinger, must now decide whether to charge 28-year-old Zimmerman with a crime. They will likely take several weeks to review the evidence and may do more investigating, a spokeswoman said. > [@](#): > > Trayvon’s family, attorneys and supporters say he is the victim of racial profiling and demand that Zimmerman be charged with murder. There is little chance of that. Zimmerman says he acted in self-defense, and police never considered the case as anything but possible manslaughter. > > At a news conference Monday that was intended to ease racial tensions, police Chief Bill Lee Jr. tried to explain that his detectives simply could not find enough evidence to justify an arrest. > [@](#): > > Gun law experts on Tuesday said there’s not enough information about what happened between Trayvon and Zimmerman to say whether the crime-watch captain broke the law. > > Orlando attorney Jon Gutmacher, in an email to the Orlando Sentinel, wrote that the law allows people to “stand their ground” and use deadly force when defending themselves. And his “history of violence”: > [@](#): > > Zimmerman has a single arrest. When he was a 21 and a UCF student, one of his friends was being arrested by state alcohol agents for serving underage drinkers, according to his arrest report. > > Zimmerman began talking to the suspect, and when agents ordered him to stop and tried to escort him away, he became profane and pushed the agent’s hands, the report said. “After a short struggle,” the report said, Zimmerman was handcuffed and arrested. So he was drunk and acted shitty to a cop in college. Doesn’t exactly show a pattern. Nothing game changing in the article but it does give some more info. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/229 "2012-03-14T16:47:40Z")
What constitutes provocation? I believe Zimmerman initiated a confrontation but is that enough? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/230 "2012-03-14T17:01:00Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’ll be honest **you with the face** that is the most inaccurate, insulting, and misleading analogy I’ve ever seen. That isn’t analogous to the Zimmerman shooting at all and I sincerely hope no one even affords that scenario any response since it is patently absurd to compare it to the Zimmerman shooting. And I noticed you’ve not explained why the analogy is wrong and misleading. Funny. Feelings must be getting in the way of your ability to formulate a rational argument. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/231 "2012-03-14T17:05:02Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > What constitutes provocation? I believe Zimmerman initiated a confrontation but is that enough? Florida seems vague in their text on provocation: > [@](#): > > 1. When the killing occurs by accident and misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or That’s the sort of thing you’d need to know case law to know about how it actually works. However, if I provoke you into attacking me that just means if we both survive and the State charges you with assault you can use provocation to negate the crime of assault. Not sure what happens if I provoke you into attacking me, but then you pull a knife to kill me and I shoot you in self defense. It seems there would be a conflict of statute at least in Florida. I’d be justified in shooting you under self-defense doctrine, but I’d also probably be considered criminally culpable in your death under the manslaughter statute because my culpable negligence lead to your death (meaning I created a situation in which you died.) We don’t know what Zimmerman actually did, but it is not illegal to approach someone and ask them what they are doing, whether a “crime-watch captain” or not. It’s not illegal for them to tell me to fuck off and keep walking, either. If I keep harassing them I could see where it could rise to the level of provocation, but I’d be shocked that absent an insulting use of language just simply approaching someone and asking what they’re doing or where they are going would in itself be justifiable reason to attack someone. And please, I’m not saying that is what happened, we’re just talking about a side issue on this. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/232 "2012-03-14T17:11:25Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > It is not comparable. Self defense is a clearly defined legal concept. And it in no way mirrors this incident. Either you are pulling my leg or you’re implying that sexual consent isn’t a legally defined concept. If you’re saying the latter, I’m a need some citage. Just like **Hyde** , you haven’t explained your objection to this analogy. How lame is that? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/233 "2012-03-14T17:23:12Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Either you are pulling my leg or you’re implying that sexual consent isn’t a legally defined concept. If you’re saying the latter, I’m a need some citage. > > Just like **Hyde** , you haven’t explained your objection to this analogy. How lame is that? Why isn’t a dog a cat? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/234 "2012-03-14T17:29:22Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In my world police don’t go to the judge and do that. It’s a _judgment call_ of the police as to whether to pursue an arrest, it isn’t black and white. It’s based on the situation, personal opinion (based on professional experience and training) and the evidence and statements taken. Why would you go to a judge to tell them you _aren’t_ arresting someone? In your world, are police chiefs supposed to say stuff like this? > [@](#): > > “He felt the need to defend himself,” Lee said. “ I don’t think it was his intent to go and shoot somebody that night." Yes or no. So forget about going to judge. Is it appropriate for a cop to broadcast personal opinions about a person-of-interest when asked to explain why no arrest has been made? To me, it is not up to law enforcement to assert what people felt like. In my world, it’s awfully imprudent of a police chief to speculate on Zimmerman’s intent in a public manner like this. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/235 "2012-03-14T17:30:00Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Why isn’t a dog a cat? Sounds like you haven’t got much of an argument. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/236 "2012-03-14T17:31:43Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Why isn’t a dog a cat? If you’re going to evade perfectly reasonable questions, be cuter than this. Or you could just admit that you have nothing and save us both some time. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/237 "2012-03-14T17:34:22Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Sounds like you haven’t got much of an argument. Why isn’t a dog a cat? Because its not. Why wasn’t the analogy analogous? Because its not. Any clear thinking person would see that the situations were totally different and did not even deal with the same legal concepts. The only similarity is that there was a statement. No other response is needed. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/238 "2012-03-14T17:36:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Okay, how about we try rape. (oh noes!) > > An woman says a guy–a complete stranger–accosted her in an alley and raped her. Her genitalia shows signs of injury plus she has bruises around her wrists. Her skirt is ripped as well. There’s no immediate evidence that suggests her credibility is poor. > > When interviewed by the police, the guy she accuses fully admits to having sex with her. He also doesn’t deny causing her injuries or ripping her skirt. But he swears with a straight face that it was 100% consensual. He had a few scratches on his back but he insists these wounds were due to her being a frisky lover, just like he is. > > Surveillance video also shows the guy crouched in the bushes beside her house 10 min before the alleged rape took place. > > Now. Should his Oscar-winning performance keep him out of jail, just because the cop is swayed by his ardent insistence of innocence? How much should his denial of guilt factor into probable cause, since this guy has all the incentive in the world to lie? > > Please note, I purposely structured this scenario so that it mirrors Martin’s shooting. There’s no surveillance video of Zimmerman, unless you’re referring to the 911 call, and that’s not a slam-dunk smoking gun. In fact it probably counts toward his claim of self-defense that he called the authorities. The rest of your scenerio fits into the he said-she said/“she asked for rough sex” rape defense, which happens from time to time, and it’s been known to work. If Trayvon had lived and his testimony offered evidence against Zimmerman for attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon, then the authorities would have to decide who’s account was more credible. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/239 "2012-03-14T17:40:54Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > In your world, are police chiefs supposed to say stuff like this? > > Yes or no. So forget about going to judge. Is it appropriate for a cop to broadcast personal opinions about a person-of-interest when asked to explain why no arrest has been made? > > To me, it is not up to law enforcement to assert what people felt like. In my world, it’s awfully imprudent of a police chief to speculate on Zimmerman’s intent in a public manner like this. Intent is a required element in many but not all statutes. So yes it is necessary to form an opinion as to the intent. Since it is not yet complete with the review by the states attorney coming up he would probably be better off not giving his legal opinion out yet but he was being pressured to revealed their findings to the public. ---
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/240 "2012-03-14T17:50:23Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > If Trayvon had lived and his testimony offered evidence against Zimmerman for attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon, then the authorities would have to decide who’s account was more credible. And herein lies the rub. Look, **you with the face** , I believe (like almost everyone in this thread) that Zimmermann is not telling the truth. He’s an asshole that probably deserves to go to jail for killing an unarmed kid. However, the sad truth is, as many people keep saying, you cannot prove any of that in a court of law, since tragically Trayvon is dead - as opposed to your hypothetical rape victim. He cannot testify, and that’s why it will be hard to disprove self-defense. I hate it just as much as you, but many times do you need to hear it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=13)