# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 126
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2501 "2012-03-30T04:50:37Z")
Has anybody talked to the students at Martin’s school? If he was such a badass that he threatened to kill 250-pound men just for annoying him, _and then followed up on the threat,_ then he must have been a huge bully with his classmates. Is there any evidence to support this? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2502 "2012-03-30T05:06:57Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Has anybody talked to the students at Martin’s school? If he was such a badass that he threatened to kill 250-pound men just for annoying him, _and then followed up on the threat,_ then he must have been a huge bully with his classmates. Is there any evidence to support this? You’ve seen the video. Zimmerman is 5’9". Does he look 250-pound in the video to you? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2503 "2012-03-30T05:11:43Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > If someone’s close enough to strike you with a knife and they have the knife in their hands, you may not have time or ability to retreat. The man with the knife was confronted before being killed. [From here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14915523&postcount=2413). > [@](#): > > Big guy, 6’6", but slim, not muscular. Came upon a guy slashing his tires, confronted him, and when the guy turned to threaten or hurt him with a knife in his hand, my friend threw one punch… In my state there is a pretty good chance the guy would have been charged with something along the lines of involuntary manslaughter or something and then it would have been plea bargained down from there. This is exactly why Stand Your Ground laws are stupid and dangerous. There is no need to kill someone slashing car tires. It is just a car. You should have insurance. Retreat to a safe place and call the cops. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2504 "2012-03-30T06:52:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’ve seen the video. Zimmerman is 5’9". Does he look 250-pound in the video to you? In those clothes, all I can tell is that he’s beefy. But I would guess I’m getting the 250 from the same sources that you’re getting the 5’9". ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2505 "2012-03-30T06:56:50Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > In my state there is a pretty good chance the guy would have been charged with something along the lines of involuntary manslaughter or something and then it would have been plea bargained down from there. > > . I think this culture gap is why this case has become such a hot topic, in some areas of the USA self defense is EVUL and guns are too, and in some areas of the USA your competence will be questioned if you don’t do a headshot on the 14 year old spray painting curse words on your garage door. Ok maybe thats a wee bit over the top but there is an essential truth there, I’m from Texas and I would never vote to convict a guy who punched and killed a tire slasher that threatened him with a knife. In fact I’m a gun nut! Big supporter of the second amendment, yet I think Zimmerman was in the wrong completely and should do time. Why? He wasn’t protecting himself or his family or any other person or even property, he saw a guy walking on a public street and decided to play Batman and created a dangerous situation. If Zimmerman had approached me like that I would have maced or stabbed him, if this guy trying to rob me or kidnap me? Who knows I’m not taking the risk. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2506 "2012-03-30T07:30:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Well, that takes care of the “Zimmerman shot Martin while he was standing in front of him” crowd. And yet, if they were on the ground, Zimmerman had a hand free to draw a gun, point it Martin and shoot. He could do that and not fight Martin off? You might say the law gave him that right. I’d say that adults have a _moral duty_ to not shoot unarmed teenagers. After seeing Zimmerman in the police video (looking surprisingly fit and strong) and the description of his condition immediately after the shooting by an eyewitness, I don’t believe he tried to retreat or even fight with his fists, but more likely succumbed to his rage and took a life. And I think the detective was right and the special prosecutor will charge him with voluntary manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![DirtyBird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7c8e57/32.png) [@DirtyBird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirtyBird)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2507 "2012-03-30T11:05:58Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Has anybody talked to the students at Martin’s school? If he was such a badass that he threatened to kill 250-pound men just for annoying him, _and then followed up on the threat,_ then he must have been a huge bully with his classmates. Is there any evidence to support this? Teenagers, as I’m sure you know through experience like most of us, aren’t the most calm and collected bunch. That said, a lot of variables can induce a variety of actions, emotions, and responses. Trayvon’s presumed reaction to what he perceived as a threat isn’t indicative of the type of personality and/or response he might have demonstrated when, say, he was walking the hallways of school. You know, it’s not outside the realm of normalcy to assume that a teenager who felt threatened would presume that the logical response is to confront this threat and possibly engage it. Make sense? Not at all, but we’ve all been there and it seemed like a good idea at the time. Someone steps on your shoe? Oh absolutely an ass kicking is in order. Talks to your girlfriend? Ass kicking. Has a disagreement with your friend? Tag-team ass kicking. I’m not sold on the idea that IF Trayvon confronted and assaulted Zimmerman, it was proof positive that the he went around his high school kicking people’s asses. ---
**Author:** ![DirtyBird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7c8e57/32.png) [@DirtyBird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirtyBird)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2508 "2012-03-30T11:10:27Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > And yet, if they were on the ground, Zimmerman had a hand free to draw a gun, point it Martin and shoot. He could do that and not fight Martin off? You might say the law gave him that right. I’d say that adults have a _moral duty_ to not shoot unarmed teenagers. After seeing Zimmerman in the police video (looking surprisingly fit and strong) and the description of his condition immediately after the shooting by an eyewitness, I don’t believe he tried to retreat or even fight with his fists, but more likely succumbed to his rage and took a life. And I think the detective was right and the special prosecutor will charge him with voluntary manslaughter. You’re judging this by creating a scenario that fits your argument. For all we know, Zimmerman could have pushed Martin off, scrambled and subsequently gained enough space to draw his weapon, saw Martin approaching again, and then fired. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2509 "2012-03-30T11:16:58Z")
> [@Fat\_Chance](#): > > May be a Bricker question, but does the fact that he stated he was on a personal errand absolve the HOA in any way do you think? He wasn’t acting in any capacity or approval of the HOA so how can they be responsible? It depends on whether the association had set any rules, such as set “patrolling” hours. If it’s the case that the association let him do his patrolling whenever he wanted, then it’s conceivable he was acting in that capacity whenever he was doing it. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2510 "2012-03-30T11:29:15Z")
[Source: Chief Lee and State Attorney were on scene on the night of the shooting](http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/source-sanford-police-chief-state-attorney-made-zimmerman-no-charge-call-in-person.php#46882946) > [@](#): > > A source with knowledge of the investigation into the shooting of Trayvon Martin tells theGrio that it was then Sanford police chief Bill Lee, along with Capt. Robert O’Connor, the investigations supervisor, who made the decision to release George Zimmerman on the night of February 26th, after consulting with State Attorney Norman Wolfinger – in person. > > Wolfinger’s presence at the scene or at the police department in the night of a shooting would be unusual, according to the source. On a typical case, police contact the state attorney’s office and speak with an on duty assistant state attorney; they either discuss the matter by phone or the on duty assistant state attorney comes to the crime scene - but rarely the state attorney him or herself. According to the article, the presence of the state attorney (and the chief + investigations supervisor) has been confirmed by the police department. Questions: 1. Is this as unusual as it sounds? I would imagine it wouldn’t be unusual for the police chief and the investigations supervisor to be on scene, but the state attorney too? (It is uncertain if the attorney just went to the police station.) 2. If this is unusual, what would cause the state’s attorney to respond to this in person? I know some people are speculating that it is likely Zimmerman’s father made some phone calls. If this is true, that’s stanky. I have an additional question. It is an established fact that Serino, the homocide detective, recommended bringing charges against Zimmerman and that the state’s attorney office advised against it (that’s the wording used in the linked article). If the detective had ignored this advice and Zimmerman had been charged, how would things have played out? We have already agreed that there was probable cause to bring charges. If the investigation was going to continue anyway, what would have been the harm? I don’t understand how Zimmerman out on bail would be any functionally different from a Zimmerman now, as far as the integrity of his case goes. If anything, Zimmerman would know not to send out all these surrogates to speak for him, who don’t really seem to be helping matters much (like his father). I admit I may be thick, but I still don’t understand how not arresting Zimmerman would be constraining the investigation. Especially since the DA had made the immediate decision that there wasn’t enough evidence to bring a _conviction_. NO case ever has enough evidence to bring a conviction right away. And yet, people get arrested immediately, based on on less probable cause, every day. Not getting what makes this situation any different. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2511 "2012-03-30T12:54:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, **You** - you seem to be a rather smart person, but you have zero, zilch, nada knowledge of the law. True, I bow respectfully towards **Bricker** , but if you find yourself about to post some _legal_ opinion here on this issue, I ask you to consider your batting record, which is 0.000. > > You _non_-legal opinion is certainly as good as anyone elses. [double-checking to make sure she’s not in the pit…] I just wanna say a little bitty something here knowledge of the law. (Yeah, I hear the snickers, enjoy…) I’m sure Bricker and all other lawyers and legal professionals will agree with me when I say that “The Law” is a minuscule term that refers to a truly vast body of knowledge, one that absolutely nobody has ever mastered in its entirety. It’s why continuing education is so important to a lawyer’s work, and why they have a mind-boggling array of information available to them that is being updated almost hourly. Even if a lawyer has a tiny little slice of a slice of an area of the law and they do the same type of case repeatedly, they still have to look things up and double check that everything is the same this year as it was last. That’s also why lawyers specialize, and it’s likely that there will still be large areas within their specialty that they will never encounter and will therefore never know much about: If someone is the greatest criminal lawyer anyone ever heard of, practicing in New York, there’s still other state, locality and federal differences that they won’t know anything about. On the other end, there are people whose knowledge of the law is only the absolute minimum one can possibly have and still be able to function in society. But in between those extremes is a continuum of experience, knowledge, and understanding along which everyone else falls. If anyone is wrong about some aspect of the law, it doesn’t mean that they are 100% clueless about the law entirely, and if someone is a respected professional with a successful career, it doesn’t mean they are invariably correct about everything. And I say this truly on behalf of others, because I know it will never change for me personally around here - It just grinds my ass no matter who is being dismissed. (And I have no idea or opinion whatsoever about You’s overall correctness, either her or in any other context. I’m just taking the opportunity Deth’s chiding presented to make a general statement. For the record.) So ease up already. Thats all, carry on… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2512 "2012-03-30T12:57:09Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Source: Chief Lee and State Attorney were on scene on the night of the shooting](http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/source-sanford-police-chief-state-attorney-made-zimmerman-no-charge-call-in-person.php#46882946) > > According to the article, the presence of the state attorney (and the chief + investigations supervisor) has been confirmed by the police department. This was what I was talking to a friend about - that Zimmerman wasn’t let off so easy because they are all racist assholes, or even because of SYG: I think Daddy knows somebody and pulled some strings. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2513 "2012-03-30T13:39:06Z")
> [@Fat\_Chance](#): > > May be a Bricker question, but does the fact that he stated he was on a personal errand absolve the HOA in any way do you think? He wasn’t acting in any capacity or approval of the HOA so how can they be responsible? Actually, that’s a civil law question on respondeat superior and related torts, so I’d defer to someone with a stronger background in civil law. We have enough unsupported speculation around here. My professional experience was solely in criminal defense. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2514 "2012-03-30T13:39:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I want to point out this is exactly how my father died. He was sick, they called the paramedics, who came. They suggested strongly he be transported to the hospital, he declined. He was lucid, so they **simply noted** that & that he refused transport on their call record and left. (bolding mine) Read the part in bold, please. The EMTs did exactly for your father what I’m saying they should have done with Zimmerman. As first responders, cops should have done the same thing: _documented that hospital care was recommended and that it was declined_. They don’t just do this for kicks. They do this for liability purposes. The initial report doesn’t show Zimmerman’s refusal to obtain medical care, even though the cop said the guy was bleeding from the nose and head. One should wonder why the cops did not record that the subject declined ER evaluation, if in fact the first responders on the scene believed he had suffered head injuries. Here are some possible (not necessarily an exhaustive) reasons why this was not documented in the initial report: 1. the cops are incompetent recordkeepers 2. the cops are incompetent at realizing the medical (and legal) implications of detaining a person for hours after they’ve supposedly suffered head trauma 3. the cops didn’t believe the guy had really suffered head trauma (despite his reported bloody appearance), and therefore didn’t feel it was necessary to recommend that he go to the ER. If the answer is #3 (and I’m not saying it definitely is before someone jumps down my throat), this supports the idea that Zimmerman did not appear to be obviously injured on the scene. Which is consistent with his blemish-free appearance on the surveillance video. It is one more indicator that the guy’s story is false. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2515 "2012-03-30T13:42:53Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > [double-checking to make sure she’s not in the pit…] > > I just wanna say a little bitty something here knowledge of the law. (Yeah, I hear the snickers, enjoy…) > > I’m sure Bricker and all other lawyers and legal professionals will agree with me when I say that “The Law” is a minuscule term that refers to a truly vast body of knowledge, one that absolutely nobody has ever mastered in its entirety. It’s why continuing education is so important to a lawyer’s work, and why they have a mind-boggling array of information available to them that is being updated almost hourly. Even if a lawyer has a tiny little slice of a slice of an area of the law and they do the same type of case repeatedly, they still have to look things up and double check that everything is the same this year as it was last. > > That’s also why lawyers specialize, and it’s likely that there will still be large areas within their specialty that they will never encounter and will therefore never know much about: If someone is the greatest criminal lawyer anyone ever heard of, practicing in New York, there’s still other state, locality and federal differences that they won’t know anything about. > > On the other end, there are people whose knowledge of the law is only the absolute minimum one can possibly have and still be able to function in society. > > But in between those extremes is a continuum of experience, knowledge, and understanding along which everyone else falls. If anyone is wrong about some aspect of the law, it doesn’t mean that they are 100% clueless about the law entirely, and if someone is a respected professional with a successful career, it doesn’t mean they are invariably correct about everything. > > And I say this truly on behalf of others, because I know it will never change for me personally around here - It just grinds my ass no matter who is being dismissed. (And I have no idea or opinion whatsoever about You’s overall correctness, either her or in any other context. I’m just taking the opportunity Deth’s chiding presented to make a general statement. For the record.) So ease up already. > > Thats all, carry on… True dat, as my last post shows. But there’s something else, **Stoid** , that lawyers tend to do, and that’s avoid taking absolute positions precisely because of that uncertainty. Obviously advocates for a client will take whatever position best serves their clients’ interests, but in general conversations, you’ll see lots of phrases like, “I can find no case that supports this view,” as opposed to “There has never been a case that supports this view.” In my view, it’s generally a good approach. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2516 "2012-03-30T13:44:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I never said the cops would force him to receive accept medical treatment against their consent. > > I said they would need to tell him medical evaluation is indicated, and if he still refuses, then having him sign an official declination form would be warranted so that it’s on the record. > > Do you still dispute this? In law enforcement, things like this are supposed to be documented. > [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Would you expect something like that to be in the police report, i.e. “EMTs on scene suggested Mr. Zimmerman be taken to the emergency room for further evaluation but Mr. Zimmerman declined further treatment.” > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Read the part in bold, please. The EMTs did exactly for your father what I’m saying they should have done with Zimmerman. As first responders, cops should have done the same thing: _documented that hospital care was recommended and that it was declined_. They don’t just do this for kicks. They do this for liability purposes. > > The initial report doesn’t show Zimmerman’s refusal to obtain medical care, even though the cop said the guy was bleeding from the nose and head. One should wonder why the cops did not record that the subject declined ER evaluation, if in fact the first responders on the scene believed he had suffered head injuries. > > Here are some possible (not necessarily an exhaustive) reasons why this was not documented in the initial report: > > 1. the cops are incompetent recordkeepers > > 2. the cops are incompetent at realizing the medical (and legal) implications of detaining a person for hours after they’ve supposedly suffered head trauma > > 3. the cops didn’t believe the guy had really suffered head trauma (despite his reported bloody appearance), and therefore didn’t feel it was necessary to recommend that he go to the ER. > > If the answer is #3 (and I’m not saying it definitely is before someone jumps down my throat), this supports the idea that Zimmerman did not appear to be obviously injured on the scene. Which is consistent with his blemish-free appearance on the surveillance video. It is one more indicator that the guy’s story is false. 1. The EMTs were the ones that documented the refusal of medical treatment. In **DrDeth** ’s father’s case, the pronoun ‘they’ clearly refers to the EMTs that documented the refusal of medical treatment. Why do you now excoriate the police for not documenting it? I don’t say they couldn’t, but if the EMTs were the ones offering the treatment, I would expect them to document the refusal. if indeed it happened. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2517 "2012-03-30T14:05:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why do you now excoriate the police for not documenting it? > > I don’t say they couldn’t, but if the EMTs were the ones offering the treatment, I would expect them to document the refusal. if indeed it happened. The cops were the one’s taking him into custody. They handcuffed him and put them in their car. That makes him their responsibility, not the EMTs. If the EMTs did not tell the cops that the guy looked like he’d sustained damage to his head and that he was in need of evaluation, then either they are some very incompetent paramedics _or_ they didn’t believe he’d sustained damage to his head. I’m leaning towards the latter, mainly because of the video. In the initial report, all that is that is noted that the EMT cleared Zimmerman for release. If the EMTs had told the cops that the guy needed to be looked at for concussion, that should have been noted in the police report. **DrDeth’s** dad wasn’t being trotted away by the cops. So it’s not a comparable situation. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2518 "2012-03-30T14:06:27Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > Bullshit-- you are apprehended in a state in which cannot walk but must be carried > and the Police may not insist that a Doctor take a look at you? Try again with that, pal. > > A broken nose is not as drastic, but if your nose is deformed and swollen to twice > its normal size then I would say the police might be vulnerable under civil liability > for \*not \*taking you to the ER. I think you would say wrongly, then. FSA 381.026, the Florida Patient’s Bill of Rights and Responsibilities, provides _in pari materia_: > [@](#): > > 1. A patient has the right to refuse any treatment based on information required by this paragraph, except as otherwise provided by law. The responsible provider shall document any such refusal. Did you review this provision before you issued your confident analysis of “Bullshit?” What aspects of your analysis led you to disregard it? Florida’s laws are consistent in this regard with most states, which have found either a common-law right to refuse treatment based on informed consent – see _Matter of Storar_, 52 N.Y.2d 363 (1981), for a good example – , or on both common law and a constitutional right to privacy – as in _Superintendent of Belchertown State School v. Saikewicz_, 370 N.E.2d 417 (1977). The Supreme Court has weighed in, holding that “[A] competent person has a liberty interest to be free of unwanted medical treatment…” and that this right is fundamental. See _Cruzan v. Director, Missouri Department of Health_, 497 U.S. 261 (1990). Did you review the _Cruzan_ case before typing the word “bullshit,” or after? Which aspects of that decision do you believe make it inapplicable to our discussion here? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2519 "2012-03-30T14:15:09Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If the EMTs had told the cops that the guy needed to be looked at for concussion, that should have been noted in the police report. It should have, in the sense that it would have avoided this point being raised. But was it a breach of their standard procedure? In other cases where the police and EMTs both respond and the subject refuses medical treatment, who documents it? This [Wiki page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusal_of_medical_assistance) says: > [@](#): > > Ideally, the refusal is a form provided by and filled out by the agency and signed by multiple parties - usually the EMS agency itself, the patient (or his legal proxy or guardian), and a witness (ideally a police officer). A copy is attached to the patient care report or otherwise secured and retained by the agency, and another copy is usually given to the patient. The patient is advised of the risks of refusal, including the fact that their condition may worsen, and advised to call 911 or the emergency number without hesitation if they feel the need. What source are you relying upon to conclude differently? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2520 "2012-03-30T14:15:55Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > In those clothes, all I can tell is that he’s beefy. But I would guess I’m getting the 250 from the same sources that you’re getting the 5’9". It says 5’9" on the police report. For weights I’ve seen estimates ranging from 170 pounds to 250 pounds. Based on the police video, 250 is ridiculous. 220 is possible and probably around 200. The police report on Martin says 6’ and 160 pounds, but unless it based on the autopsy report, it is probably wrong. The police officers at the scene never saw him standing up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=125) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=127)