# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 127
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2521 "2012-03-30T14:21:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > We have already agreed that there was probable cause to bring charges. Who is the “we” in this sentence? It seems that among the people who agree with you about Zimmerman’s obvious guilt, “we” have agreed to much more than this, and to those who have counseled that making a judgement before all the facts are known is unwise, it’s not correct to say an agreement about probable cause has been reached. Who is “we?” ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2522 "2012-03-30T14:44:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > True dat, as my last post shows. > > But there’s something else, **Stoid** , that lawyers tend to do, and that’s avoid taking absolute positions precisely because of that uncertainty. Obviously advocates for a client will take whatever position best serves their clients’ interests, but in general conversations, you’ll see lots of phrases like, “I can find no case that supports this view,” as opposed to “There has never been a case that supports this view.” > > In my view, it’s generally a good approach. Thank you, and I agree that it is a good approach when it matters. Ideal, in fact: you don’t know what you don’t know! But in casual, entirely meaningless and impact-free conversation between people who are in no way whatsoever connected to the issues being discussed? Nah, that’s no fun. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It says 5’9" on the police report. For weights I’ve seen estimates ranging from 170 pounds to 250 pounds. Based on the police video, 250 is ridiculous. 220 is possible and probably around 200. > > The police report on Martin says 6’ and 160 pounds, but unless it based on the autopsy report, it is probably wrong. The police officers at the scene never saw him standing up. Yeah, I was taken aback by his appearance after the old photo and the description. He looks like he’s been spending time getting in shape, doesn’t look at all pudgy. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2523 "2012-03-30T14:52:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It should have, \*\*in the sense that it would have avoided this point being raised. \*\* That’s why it should be documented. As a lawyer, you should know this. There’s a saying in the government: “If it’s not documented, it didn’t happen”. If EMT thought Zimmerman had head trauma, don’t you think it would have been negligent of them not to have communicated this to the cops? If this very important conversation happened and it wasn’t noted in the police report, then that should lead us to wonder: what other very important things went unnoted? “If it’s not documented, it didn’t happen.” If this very important conversation _did not_ happen, why not? Do we have any reason to believe the paramedics are massively incompetent? No, we don’t have any reason to believe this, even though anything is possible. But then there’s this: Do we have a reason to believe the EMTs didn’t think Zimmerman had head trauma or broken nose? Yes, we do have reason to believe this. The surveillance video supports the absence of head trauma or broken nose. In this case, the simplest explanation is probably the right one. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2524 "2012-03-30T14:54:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But then there’s this: Do we have a reason to believe the EMTs didn’t think Zimmerman had head trauma or broken nose? Yes, we do have reason to believe this. The surveillance video supports the absence of head trauma or broken nose. > > In this case, the simplest explanation is probably the right one. … but you still cannot know until you see the EMT report. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2525 "2012-03-30T15:05:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … but you still cannot know until you see the EMT report. The cops didn’t note any advice from EMT that Zimmerman needed further medical attention for a potential concussion. Regardless of what’s in the EMT report, that is compelling evidence that he didn’t need it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2526 "2012-03-30T15:14:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The cops didn’t note any advice from EMT that Zimmerman needed further medical attention for a potential concussion. Regardless of what’s in the EMT report, that is compelling evidence that he didn’t need it. Since cops don’t need to note any advice from the EMT in their report, no, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2527 "2012-03-30T15:15:01Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > And yet, if they were on the ground, Zimmerman had a hand free to draw a gun, point it Martin and shoot. He could do that and not fight Martin off? You might say the law gave him that right. I’d say that adults have a _moral duty_ to not shoot unarmed teenagers. After seeing Zimmerman in the police video (looking surprisingly fit and strong) and the description of his condition immediately after the shooting by an eyewitness, I don’t believe he tried to retreat or even fight with his fists, but more likely succumbed to his rage and took a life. And I think the detective was right and the special prosecutor will charge him with voluntary manslaughter. You seem to hung up on your semantic reaction to the word ‘teenager’. The fact of the matter is that teenagers are very violent. According to the FBI 800 homicides were committed by minors. Over 10% of the homicides in the United States are committed by people from 17 to 19. [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl03.xls](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl03.xls) I think Zimmerman was stupid to get out of his truck, but doesn’t mean that it is okay for Martin to beat him up., it just means that he was taking an unnecessary stupid risk. If we accept Zimmerman’s story, then he never had a chance to retreat. The first thing he knows he is on the ground getting his head pounded against the concrete and he doesn’t know how much longer he will be conscious. Under the circumstances. Of course, if you assume that Zimmerman and the witness ‘John’ are lying, then it is a different story, but you should state that as your assumption. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2528 "2012-03-30T15:16:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Since cops don’t need to note any advice from the EMT in their report, no, it isn’t. By that logic, that don’t need to note anything in their report. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2529 "2012-03-30T15:34:10Z")
Why do we think Zimmerman needed to go to the hospital? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2530 "2012-03-30T15:40:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Read the part in bold, please. The EMTs did exactly for your father what I’m saying they should have done with Zimmerman. As first responders, cops should have done the same thing: _documented that hospital care was recommended and that it was declined_. They don’t just do this for kicks. They do this for liability purposes. > > The initial report doesn’t show Zimmerman’s refusal to obtain medical care, even though the cop said the guy was bleeding from the nose and head. One should wonder why the cops did not record that the subject declined ER evaluation, if in fact the first responders on the scene believed he had suffered head injuries. > > . The cops don’t do the EMT’s job, they don’t note what the EMT decisions are. The EMTs would note these \*in their own report, which we have not seen. \* ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2531 "2012-03-30T15:41:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think you would say wrongly, then. > > FSA 381.026, the Florida Patient’s Bill of Rights and Responsibilities, provides _in pari materia_: > > Did you review this provision before you issued your confident analysis of “Bullshit?” What aspects of your analysis led you to disregard it? > > Florida’s laws are consistent in this regard with most states, which have found either a common-law right to refuse treatment based on informed consent – see _Matter of Storar_, 52 N.Y.2d 363 (1981), for a good example – , or on both common law and a constitutional right to privacy – as in _Superintendent of Belchertown State School v. Saikewicz_, 370 N.E.2d 417 (1977). > > The Supreme Court has weighed in, holding that “[A] competent person has a liberty interest to be free of unwanted medical treatment…” and that this right is fundamental. See _Cruzan v. Director, Missouri Department of Health_, 497 U.S. 261 (1990). > > Did you review the _Cruzan_ case before typing the word “bullshit,” or after? Which aspects of that decision do you believe make it inapplicable to our discussion here? Ooh,\* snap!\* ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2532 "2012-03-30T15:42:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Since cops don’t need to note any advice from the EMT in their report, no, it isn’t. Actually SPD did make a note. Look at Officer’s Smith report. > [@](#): > > Once **Zimmerman was cleared by the SFD** , he was transported to the Sanford Police Department. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2533 "2012-03-30T15:43:13Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Why do we think Zimmerman needed to go to the hospital? Because his apologists would have us believe Martin was seen sitting on his chest, viciously bashing Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk, again and again. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2534 "2012-03-30T17:26:07Z")
> [@Fat\_Chance](#): > > May be a Bricker question, but does the fact that he stated he was on a personal errand absolve the HOA in any way do you think? He wasn’t acting in any capacity or approval of the HOA so how can they be responsible? Civil attorney checking in. I am not familiar with Florida law, but for a _respondeat superior_ argument, the personal errand mention is probably a defense on paper. But, if the HOA was aware that Zimmerman consistently acted as Neighborhood Watch during times he was not actually _on watch_ there would be a waiver argument or an after-the-fact ratification on an agency argument. Also, putting myself in a Plaintiff attorney’s shoes, I would include claims against the HOA such as agency and direct negligence for breaching duties owed to the general public. I would also, as **Ascenray** says, dredge up the bylaws, and probably have a freaking field day inventing causes of action and duties out of that. More interesting than a suit against the HOA re Zimmerman will be any coverage action the HOA’s insurer institutes to avoid any duty to defend the lawsuit against the HOA. That’s probably where you’ll see the personal errand issue litigated although I’m not at all convinced that _respondeat superior_ necessarily applies errand or no errand–it’ll probably be an issue as to some other theory of agency. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2535 "2012-03-30T17:33:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The cops didn’t note any advice from EMT that Zimmerman needed further medical attention for a potential concussion. Regardless of what’s in the EMT report, that is compelling evidence that he didn’t need it. No, as **Bricker** quoted, the duty is on the Fire Department (EMT/EMS) to document the request by Zimmerman to not receive additional medical care. Note the term “provider” in **Bricker’s** cite. Based on the police report, the Sanford Fire Department responded to the scene as a first responder and rendered care to Zimmerman. I assume this means they had an EMT, but maybe not. They should have records/a report that hasn’t been release for at least HIPAA reasons. If they deemed transport to the hospital was a good thing, they should have documented Zimmerman’s refusal. But, if it was just some cuts and bruises, they may have treated him and decided they were not of an emergent nature requiring immediate follow up, therefore there would be no refusal to follow-up. That would be telling as to the severity of the injuries. But, I think we’ll eventually see the report from the SFD, let’s see… ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2536 "2012-03-30T17:47:10Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > No, as **Bricker** quoted, the duty is on the Fire Department (EMT/EMS) to document the request by Zimmerman to not receive additional medical care. Note the term “provider” in **Bricker’s** cite. A legal requirement is different from competent police work. What you’re saying is that because the law doesn’t mandate that the cops note what the EMT tells them about the medical status of an individual in their custody, the cops don’t to have note it in their report. And what I’m saying is that this is kind of a stuff that cops should be noting in their reports to do their jobs competently and correctly. If the EMT told them that Z needed medical attention and _they didn’t document this_, that would be as egregious of an oversight as not noting that CPR was performed at the scene. Are cops legally required to note whether CPR was performed on a unconscious subject? Probably not. But if you came across a police report and didn’t see such an important detail mentioned, it’s safe to assume that it didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2537 "2012-03-30T18:00:48Z")
You’ve got a lot of “if’s” there to support your position. **you with the face** , I don’t think the lack of this note is a boon to your “side.” Hell, I don’t even know if that Patient’s Bill can be enforced criminally. I am looking at it from a civil duty angle. If it is the duty of the SFD to document it, no, there is no reason I would also expect it to be in the police report. As an aside, I read about 10 police reports a month where there are injuries. I almost never see a notation about refusal to go to the hospital–even when I know that’s the case and well documented in the EMS report. If you want to continue arguing, great, but the lack of documentation of this issue doesn’t mean anything re the police report. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2538 "2012-03-30T18:04:49Z")
And, since I think Zimmerman had a cop next to him from the moment the police got there, I think the police had a fairly good idea if 1. there was a refused recommendation to go to the hospital and 2. if it was documented by the SFD. The police would have been standing right there during treatment…if not, then the police were derelict in their duties. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2539 "2012-03-30T18:15:21Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > YHell, I don’t even know if that Patient’s Bill can be enforced criminally. Never said that it did. Look, what I’m saying is not that radical. The purpose of the police report is to get an accurate picture of what the cops saw when they arrived on the scene and how they responded to the incident. Do you dispute this? So when key information that would tell us that the subject had a major injury is not there, it’s reasonable to conclude that the subject didn’t have a major injury. Do you dispute _this_? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2540 "2012-03-30T18:19:04Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Look, what I’m saying is not that radical. The purpose of the police report is to get an accurate picture of what the cops saw when they arrived on the scene and how they responded to the incident. Do you dispute this? > > So when key information that would tell us that the subject had a major injury is not there, it’s reasonable to conclude that the subject didn’t have a major injury. Do you dispute _this_? Yes, as that key information is contained in another report, which they have access to, but currently we have not. Your conclusion is invalid. But no one claimed Zimmerman had a “major injury”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=126) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=128)