# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 128
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2541 "2012-03-30T18:30:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Never said that it did. > > Look, what I’m saying is not that radical. The purpose of the police report is to get an accurate picture of what the cops saw when they arrived on the scene and how they responded to the incident. Do you dispute this? > > So when key information that would tell us that the subject had a major injury is not there, it’s reasonable to conclude that the subject didn’t have a major injury. Do you dispute _this_? As **DrDeth** indicated, if there was a major injury, I would expect whoever the EMS/EMT/medical first responder is to document it–especially per that statute. No, I wouldn’t expect a police report to include it–especially when the police knew whether EMS/EMT/med. first responder deemed it major and if I knew whether the police knew that the EMS/EMT/first medical responder, the people/entity with the duty, deemed it necessary to document. Again, let’s see that SFD report first. In the years I’ve been doing the particular area of the law I spend most of my time doing, I have probably seen upwards of 400 police reports. Of those, I would say I have seen about 30 where the medical records show a refusal of further treatment at the scene. I can think of only two instances where the police saw fit to also document it. One was where a driver’s brain was visible through a break in the skull. I talked to that poor Trooper later–he was scared to death although, at some point before leaving the scene, the driver did consent to go to the hospital via his friend driving him there!!! ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2542 "2012-03-30T18:34:20Z")
Is Zimmerman claiming he shot Martin while Martin was on top of him? ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2543 "2012-03-30T18:43:14Z")
I’m fairly sure we have not heard any actual statement from Zimmerman other than what may be 2nd hand in the police report. And, it is not in the portion of the police report available to the public. As far as Zimmerman’s attorney spouting off on what Zimmerman says, I don’t think there has been a direct comment one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2544 "2012-03-30T18:44:45Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Thank you, and I agree that it is a good approach when it matters. Ideal, in fact: you don’t know what you don’t know! But in casual, entirely meaningless and impact-free conversation between people who are in no way whatsoever connected to the issues being discussed? Nah, that’s no fun. Well, my usual rejoinder would have been: yes, but there’s an entire forum dedicated to baseless speculation – go do it there. Honesty requires me to report this reaction, since I must admit that in this case, the topic is in fact in that forum, making your view the correct one. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2545 "2012-03-30T18:46:17Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > … I have probably seen upwards of 400 police reports. I should have clarified, 400 police reports in matters involving alleged injuries. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2546 "2012-03-30T18:47:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Because his apologists would have us believe Martin was seen sitting on his chest, viciously bashing Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk, again and again. No it is the people who are **attacking** Zimmerman who are saying that. They claim George Zimmerman said that and then reference the video to claim he was lying or the Sanford PD was lying. The Sentinel articles that references the police report don’t say that. I didn’t listen to the interview with **Robert** Zimmerman, so I don’t know what he says, but it would be, as Bricker says, hearsay. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2547 "2012-03-30T18:49:49Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > A legal requirement is different from competent police work. > > What you’re saying is that because the law doesn’t mandate that the cops note what the EMT tells them about the medical status of an individual in their custody, the cops don’t to have note it in their report. > > And what I’m saying is that this is kind of a stuff that cops should be noting in their reports to do their jobs competently and correctly. If the EMT told them that Z needed medical attention and _they didn’t document this_, that would be as egregious of an oversight as not noting that CPR was performed at the scene. > > Are cops legally required to note whether CPR was performed on a unconscious subject? Probably not. But if you came across a police report and didn’t see such an important detail mentioned, it’s safe to assume that it didn’t happen. The question I asked was: do they routinely do it? When I was practicing law, I must have reviewed thousands of police reports. As a public defender, I found my clientele would often choose to decline medical attention, at least more so than the average run of mankind. Very seldom did this information appear in police reports. If I had to guess, I’d say fewer than 5% of instances where the suspect was examined but declined medical attention had that fact annotated in the police reports. This was not Sanford, Florida, but your objection seems to go to the practice as a whole. So when you say that because the detail does not appear in the police reports, it’s safe to assume it didn’t happen, that’s simply factually not true, based on my experience in the field. ETA: another law professional, **BottledBlondeJeanie** , has a similar story to tell. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2548 "2012-03-30T18:53:31Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Never said that it did. > > Look, what I’m saying is not that radical. The purpose of the police report is to get an accurate picture of what the cops saw when they arrived on the scene and how they responded to the incident. Do you dispute this? > > So when key information that would tell us that the subject had a major injury is not there, it’s reasonable to conclude that the subject didn’t have a major injury. Do you dispute _this_? Yes, I do. When the law places an onus for reporting one place, the absence of reporting in another place means very little. I spent years doing criminal law work and found the police extremely rarely documented refusals of medical treatment. What is your response to that fact? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2549 "2012-03-30T18:53:35Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > Civil attorney checking in. I am not familiar with Florida law, but for a _respondeat superior_ argument, the personal errand mention is probably a defense on paper. But, if the HOA was aware that Zimmerman consistently acted as Neighborhood Watch during times he was not actually _on watch_ there would be a waiver argument or an after-the-fact ratification on an agency argument. > > Also, putting myself in a Plaintiff attorney’s shoes, I would include claims against the HOA such as agency and direct negligence for breaching duties owed to the general public. I would also, as **Ascenray** says, dredge up the bylaws, and probably have a freaking field day inventing causes of action and duties out of that. > > More interesting than a suit against the HOA re Zimmerman will be any coverage action the HOA’s insurer institutes to avoid any duty to defend the lawsuit against the HOA. That’s probably where you’ll see the personal errand issue litigated although I’m not at all convinced that _respondeat superior_ necessarily applies errand or no errand–it’ll probably be an issue as to some other theory of agency. You’re scaring me. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2550 "2012-03-30T18:58:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ooh,\* snap!\* Yes, and surprise, surprise, **colonial** does not return to defend his position or admit error. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2551 "2012-03-30T19:00:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You’re scaring me. > > Regards, > Shodan As a defense attorney I often have to play devil’s advocate. Sometimes it’s not that hard. I will say, if all this sorts out in a factual way, which we’re not even sure has not pretty much happened via the investigation version 1.0, and Zimmerman was some sort of loose cannon vigilante, I might even support suits against the HOA. But that presumes that it sorts out that way, and that the HOA knew and did nothing. I feel dirty now. I’ve already come out as someone who would be all for a civil suit against Zimmerman for negligence. Time to shower a’la Crying Game…or a Silkwood shower as youngsters refer to that nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2552 "2012-03-30T19:03:27Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > By that logic, that don’t need to note anything in their report. Not true – they need to note things related to their own observations and duties. Medical treatment is not their province. They should note things that no one else is noting. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2553 "2012-03-30T19:07:40Z")
I have a couple of questions for Bricker: 1. If Zimmerman wasn’t under arrest could he have gone home if he wanted and not gone to the police station for further questioning? 2. Can the EMTs or police insist someone go to the hospital in the case of head injury if it seems to them the persons judgement is impaired because of it? If the answer is yes then would it be safe to assume that Zimmerman showed no signs of brain injury to the police that would merit such an insistence. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2554 "2012-03-30T19:20:14Z")
I noticed something interesting in the Orlando Sentinel article on 3/26. I happened to keep a copy of it in Evernote. > [@](#): > > **7:36 p.m.** EST, March 26, 2012|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel > > With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and **slammed his head into the sidewalk** , leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel. > [@](#): > > **10:52 a.m.** EST, March 26, 2012|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel > > With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and **slammed his head into the sidewalk several times** , leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel. Maybe what you remember depends on what time you read the paper. I would like to point out that this is dumb luck on my part. I just used the clip article button on my browser instead of clip url like I usually do. BTW Evernote is free and I can sync it across all my computers including my tablet. A handy feature. [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326\_1\_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager?pagewanted=all](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager?pagewanted=all) > **[Google Search](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IYtGk_MzCvYJ:articles.orlandosentinel.com%2F2012-03-26%2Fnews%2Fos-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager%2B&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)** ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2555 "2012-03-30T19:22:50Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I have a couple of questions for Bricker: > > 1. If Zimmerman wasn’t under arrest could he have gone home if he wanted and not gone to the police station for further questioning? Depends. He could have been detained (although I don’t know if that’s allowed in Florida). In any case, whether he went voluntarily, was detained or arrested, his cooperation in interrogations there was voluntary. > [@](#): > > 1. Can the EMTs or police insist someone go to the hospital in the case of head injury if it seems to them the persons judgement is impaired because of it? If the answer is yes then would it be safe to assume that Zimmerman showed no signs of brain injury to the police that would merit such an insistence. I don’t know why people are stuck on this. The law does not require grave bodily injury in order to claim self-defense. It requires reasonable fear of grave bodily injury. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2556 "2012-03-30T19:25:57Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I have a couple of questions for Bricker: > > 1. If Zimmerman wasn’t under arrest could he have gone home if he wanted and not gone to the police station for further questioning? Could he have gone home? Possible, but the police do have the power to briefly detain someone for investigative purposes without arresting them. This power can be used when the police have _reasonable suspicion_ that the suspect is involve din criminal activity. Reasonable suspicion is a level of belief below that of _probable cause_, but higher than a mere hunch or guess. If the police wanted to detain him for a period of time, they could, without having probable cause. To bring someone involuntarily into the station for questioning must generally involve probable cause. > [@](#): > > 1. Can the EMTs or police insist someone go to the hospital in the case of head injury if it seems to them the persons judgement is impaired because of it? If the answer is yes then would it be safe to assume that Zimmerman showed no signs of brain injury to the police that would merit such an insistence. Yes, there are almost always exceptions in the rule for someone who is unconscious or not lucid. But the standard is high. EMTs cannot typically say, “Look, you’ve gotten a head injury, and so therefore I must insist on treating you.” In order to administer treatment against the patient’s wishes, typically the patient would have to be clearly and obviously irrational _apart from simply refusing treatment_. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2557 "2012-03-30T19:27:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t know why people are stuck on this. The law does not require grave bodily injury in order to claim self-defense. It requires reasonable fear of grave bodily injury. It goes toward trying to figure put who is telling the truth. Many of Zimmerman’s public defenders are painting a picture that seems at odds with what actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2558 "2012-03-30T19:28:22Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I have a couple of questions for Bricker: > > 1. If Zimmerman wasn’t under arrest could he have gone home if he wanted and not gone to the police station for further questioning? > > . 1. Sure. Now, I want to point out that one reason why he wasn’t arrested is likely that he cooperated fully. If he had insisted on going home and lawyered up, they might well have “arrested him”, then he’d have been freed a day or so later since no charges would have been filed. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2559 "2012-03-30T19:41:51Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > It goes toward trying to figure put who is telling the truth. Many of Zimmerman’s public defenders are painting a picture that seems at odds with what actually happened. Great, if there were wounds, they should be documented in the SFD report since they were the folks who rendered treatment to Zimmerman i.e., they were the “provider” per statute. Again, those aren’t released yet. HIPAA protects them, but there may be other reasons we haven’t seen them yet–for instance this matter is still being investigated. And while we’re at it, so many of you are saying the police report is faked to support Zimmerman or includes both initial and supplemental information and may not be complete. You can’t have it both ways. You suspect the police report? Then quit using it to show a lack of documentation of Zimmerman’s injuries. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2560 "2012-03-30T19:45:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not true – they need to note things related to their own observations and duties. Medical treatment is not their province. They should note things that no one else is noting. If EMT tells the cops something important about the subject, is it the cop’s duty to note that? Yes or no. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=127) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=129)