# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 143
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2841 "2012-04-02T19:57:03Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Really? > REALLY? > I can tell you with absolute certainty that I was much stronger and much less fearful at 17 than I am today. Hell, at that age, my teammates and I didn’t just “think” we were indestructible, we were certain of it. To the extent that you’d remain silent if a stranger picked a fight with you on a dark street and stuck a gun at you? Like **steronz** , we must like on different planets. Because in my world, I’d be shitting my pants, crying, \*and \*screaming. Not every teenaged male thinks they are invicible. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2842 "2012-04-02T19:59:24Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Because his goal was to keep him from running away and Martin refused to make it easy for him, Zimmerman whipped out his gun to scare the boy into submission. But Martin started screaming. This messed everything up. He knew at this point he’d stepped over the line. He panicked and shot the kid. If he were that smart and that reasoned, I would know that “brandishing” the weapon would very likely result in the loss of his permit. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2843 "2012-04-02T20:06:23Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > If he were that smart and that reasoned, I would know that “brandishing” the weapon would very likely result in the loss of his permit. Which is exactly why 1) he would never admit to doing this, and 2) Martin had put him a compromising position by screaming. It would only take one witness to see him holding the kid at gunpoint to lose his privileges and everything he was working towards. So he panicked. Kabloohey. How do you think Zimmerman was planning on restraining the kid without putting his gun into play? Was he operating under the assumption that Martin would just stand there? Did he think he could just put the kid in a bear hug and wait things out? I’m honestly trying to imagine how Zimmerman thought he could detain Martin without drawing his gun, and I’m drawing a blank. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2844 "2012-04-02T20:12:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Like I said, it’s a stretch to believe he wouldn’t know Zimmerman was carrying by the time the yelling started. To entertain this notion means you’re giving credence to Zimmerman’s statement, and there’s no reason any of us should do this. Especially when we’re talking about the difference between a man confessing to aggravated assault versus one who has a legitimate claim to self-defense. > > I understand your theory, I just think it’s unlikely and requires us to give too much credence to hot button elements in Zimmerman’s story. I politely disagree. I think you are stretching to color this as a case of a meek teen fleeing for his life gunned down by the preternaturally fast Zimmerman. Your “likely” scenario asks us to jump through many hoops and requires singular interpretation of many of the facts. You insist for whatever personal reasons that Martin not only be innocent, he must be angelic to boot. You just can’t seem to grasp the fact that Martin could have hit Zimmerman yet in no way have justified Zimmerman’s fatal response. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2845 "2012-04-02T20:18:35Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’d like to add to this that, in my opinion, people who carry handguns, call the cops every 10 minutes, and see “threats” where none exist, are typically giant pussies. I think Zimmerman was no different. That he was armed on his way to the grocery store is evidence of his cowardice, not his fearlessness. Well, we can take a bet if you want. $50 says that when the forensic guy tests Martin’s voice against the yelling on that tape, the likelihood score is greater than 75%. $10 says it’s merely higher than Zimmerman’s. Willing to take either bet? I don’t think Zimmerman is actually fearless. But he sees himself that way. There’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2846 "2012-04-02T20:18:51Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I understand your theory, I just think it’s unlikely and requires us to give too much credence to hot button elements in Zimmerman’s story. It is unlikely that Zimmerman fabricated his cover story from whole cloth. The story that incorporates as many of the known facts and accounts is more likely to be true than a story that wants us to forget that witnesses have reported one person on top off another. How do you explain that? Kid approached with a gun mournfully wailing in fear doesn’t sound like the type to go on the offensive and wind up on top. Zimmerman in your junior cop fantasy would have to be one part brilliant (alibi) and two parts moron (permit holder brandishing weapon, physically engaging Martin) to wind up on top. It you got the drop on him, there is no need to get in close. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2847 "2012-04-02T20:19:27Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Like **steronz** , we must like on different planets. Because in my world, I’d be shitting my pants, crying, \*and \*screaming. > > Not every teenaged male thinks they are invicible. Yeah, you must be living on a different planet. I know people who have been mugged at gunpoint, and nobody started screaming. There’s an instinct, I think, not to piss off the guy with the gun. That means a) shut up, b) hand over whatever he asks for. Shitting yourself is probably on the menu. Crying, meh. I’ll let you have that one owing to your gender. Men don’t cry 🙂 [QUOTE=you with the face] I’m honestly trying to imagine how Zimmerman thought he could detain Martin without drawing his gun, and I’m drawing a blank. [/QUOTE] I honestly don’t think he intended on restraining him at first. I think he was just following him. He knew the cops were on their way, and he wanted to be able to point out exactly where he went. Remember that he told the 911 operator to have the cops call him when they showed up, and he’d tell him where he was. I think he was probably surprised that Martin had the chutzpah to turn around and say “Why are you following me?” That right there probably put Zimmerman on the defensive. I think he ultimately did try to physical restrain him, and things just got out of hand. This notion that he’d walk around, 6-gun at his hip, telling people to reach for the sky is a bit… well, your world is interesting, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2848 "2012-04-02T20:22:12Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Like **steronz** , we must like on different planets. Because in my world, I’d be shitting my pants, crying, \*and \*screaming. > > Not every teenaged male thinks they are invicible. I’m wondering if you ever were a teenage male. Shitting my pants? Maybe, maybe not. Wailing mournfully? Very unlikely. Most likely it would have been a “hey man, whoa, whoa, whoa. Just hold on. Let’s talk about this.” response. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2849 "2012-04-02T20:27:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > How do you think Zimmerman was planning on restraining the kid without putting his gun into play? Was he operating under the assumption that Martin would just stand there? Did he think he could just put the kid in a bear hug and wait things out? I’m honestly trying to imagine how Zimmerman thought he could detain Martin without drawing his gun, and I’m drawing a blank. You’ve honestly never seen a fight where one participant tries to walk away initially? Usually the aggressor grabs them by a sleeve, the arm, the collar. Something like that. A “hey where are you going?” move. Typically the one that was restrained from leaving responds with a shove to get away. The aggressor (if he is large enough or strong enough to not be knocked down) either strikes back or grabs on to person attempting to retreat. The struggle worsens and it either ends in standing fisticuffs or a rolling struggle on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2850 "2012-04-02T20:32:36Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Well, we can take a bet if you want. $50 says that when the forensic guy tests Martin’s voice against the yelling on that tape, the likelihood score is greater than 75%. $10 says it’s merely higher than Zimmerman’s. Willing to take either bet? Ah, I see now. You aren’t interested in WHAT happened. You are interested in being RIGHT about what you say happened. Like Iron Mike said. I want to believe Zimmerman did something illegal, hell I am certain he did. But you and I weren’t there and we are never going to have all the answers since one of the participants is dead. I’ll take whatever story is the easiest to prove and convict him with. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t think Zimmerman is actually fearless. But he sees himself that way. There’s a difference. Who does? I sure don’t. As **steronz** pointed out, the CCW permit is evidence that he was a fearful man. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2851 "2012-04-02T20:35:08Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > You’ve honestly never seen a fight where one participant tries to walk away initially? > Usually the aggressor grabs them by a sleeve, the arm, the collar. Something like that. A “hey where are you going?” move. Typically the one that was restrained from leaving responds with a shove to get away. The aggressor (if he is large enough or strong enough to not be knocked down) either strikes back or grabs on to person attempting to retreat. The struggle worsens and it either ends in standing fisticuffs or a rolling struggle on the ground. The only time an aggressor continued to aggress with me when I would not engage, she just ran up behind me and jumped on me, knocking me flat. I stood up, brushed myself off, never even looked back, and kept walking. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2852 "2012-04-02T20:35:29Z")
If I were a betting man, I’d put my money on \*\*steronz’s \*\*interpretation; that’s my take as well. What it all boils down to me is that Zimmerman was an idiot to leave the street. What could he have been expecting when he followed Martin into the yards? That they would have a pleasant chat and go about their business? I don’t think so – I cite Zimmerman’s 911 calls. I’m sure he thought he’d get the drop on the kid, but didn’t anticipate it being at close quarters. And when it went down that way - whether Martin punched Zimmerman, or Zimmerman grabbed Martin, or whatever - there was just no fucking way this theiving thug was going to get away. His inner pussy blossomed like a daisy and “AAAAAH!” BANG! was the result. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2853 "2012-04-02T20:41:58Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Your “likely” scenario asks us to jump through many hoops and requires singular interpretation of many of the facts. You insist for whatever personal reasons that Martin not only be innocent, he must be angelic to boot. Where have said that Martin is as angelic? I’ve simply asserted we have no good reason to believe him hitting Zimmerman was the true reason why the man to shot him. And that’s 100% true. I think you’re reading too much into my posts. Here are your hoops your theory must take us through: 1. That Zimmerman kept his weapon concealed up until the moment he fired the gun. Even though his agenda from the beginning was the keep Martin from getting away. Problem is, you still haven’t come up with any likely explanation for how he thought he could restrain Martin without putting his gun into play. Holding his hand? 2. That Martin was about to get away from his grasp, and that’s why he shot him. To keep him from getting away. Not exactly a hoop, but I’m not convinced that Zimmerman was so invested in restraining Martin that he was willing to murder the guy to do it. 3. That Martin was so fearless, so sure of his indestructability, that its unlikely he would have been the voice yelling for help. Even though he wasn’t the agressor or carrying a weapon. Compared to the man with the gun, he was defenseless. But you’re saying his 17 year-old stoicism would have kept his mouth shut. Okay. Big hoop. 4. That Zimmerman was yelling for help like a desperate madman as a way of rallying his neighbors to stop this a thug from getting away. Why he would think Mary, Jon, and them would be capable of stopping the unstoppable menance that was Martin is beyond me, but you think this is likelier than Martin yelling for help. So tell me what hoops am I making you jump through with my theory that Zimmerman panicked when Martin started yelling? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2854 "2012-04-02T20:43:39Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > This notion that he’d walk around, 6-gun at his hip, telling people to reach for the sky is a bit… well, your world is interesting, that’s for sure. I concur. **you with the face** seems to be putting more importance on being right in regard to this story they’ve concocted than in justice being served. **you with the face** , I hope you have noticed that you and I are ostensibly on the same side. Tell you what. You keep arguing with everyone here who takes any position. I’ll bow out. When it all shakes out in the courts, if you were closer to the truth, you can come back here and post “nya, nya, nya” for all to see. If I end up being closer to the truth, well, that will be just very very sad indeed and I won’t bother gloating. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2855 "2012-04-02T20:47:09Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Go around laying your hands on 17 year olds to “stop them from getting away”. I’m pretty sure you will find that many will find a pop in the nose a reasonable response. You are assuming facts not in evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2856 "2012-04-02T20:47:42Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The only time an aggressor continued to aggress with me when I would not engage, she just ran up behind me and jumped on me, knocking me flat. I stood up, brushed myself off, never even looked back, and kept walking. I know this is going to make me sound sexist, but women don’t fight the same as men. But, you have also enlightened me to a possibility I didn’t consider. Gun brandished or not (though it would take some serious balls if it was) maybe Martin did just turn and start to leave. Zimmerman jumps him from behind. But tries to hold him down until cops arrive. Struggle ensues. Gun comes out. Struggle to control gun hand and cries for help. Panic sets in and Martin tries to run for it. Bang! ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2857 "2012-04-02T20:49:03Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > If I were a betting man, I’d put my money on \*\*steronz’s \*\*interpretation; that’s my take as well. What it all boils down to me is that Zimmerman was an idiot to leave the street. What could he have been expecting when he followed Martin into the yards? That they would have a pleasant chat and go about their business? I don’t think so – I cite Zimmerman’s 911 calls. > > I’m sure he thought he’d get the drop on the kid, but didn’t anticipate it being at close quarters. And when it went down that way - whether Martin punched Zimmerman, or Zimmerman grabbed Martin, or whatever - there was just no fucking way this theiving thug was going to get away. > > His inner pussy blossomed like a daisy and “AAAAAH!” BANG! was the result. In a very concise and well worded nutshell, that is pretty much my point as well. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2858 "2012-04-02T20:54:24Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > You’ve honestly never seen a fight where one participant tries to walk away initially? > Usually the aggressor grabs them by a sleeve, the arm, the collar. Something like that. A “hey where are you going?” move. Typically the one that was restrained from leaving responds with a shove to get away. The aggressor (if he is large enough or strong enough to not be knocked down) either strikes back or grabs on to person attempting to retreat. The struggle worsens and it either ends in standing fisticuffs or a rolling struggle on the ground. Do you think Zimmerman’s goal along was to restrain Martin, to keep him from getting away? If so, do you really think he was going to acheive that by grabbing him by the sleeve? Do you think that was his plan from jump street, to take the boy by the collar and “Hey, not so fast!” Because if you do, we really have nothing more to say to one another. We might as well be talking different languages. Some of Zimmerman’s story is probably true. The stuff in his story that has the highest likelihood of being truthful is the stuff that either is completely neutral to his guilt or innocence, or makes him look less than perfect. But the stuff that has the highest likelihood of being false is the stuff paints the complete picture of a totally justified shooting. So the fact that he denied brandishing a weapon , denied initiating the confrontation with Martin, and claimed that Martin hit him first? All of this is subject to skepticism in the absence of supporting evidence. Since we don’t have that supporting evidence why in the hell would we put any weight in any of this? That’s the part I’m not getting. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2859 "2012-04-02T21:01:28Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Ah, I see now. You aren’t interested in WHAT happened. You are interested in being RIGHT about what you say happened. Um, no. I’m just interested in seeing how truly **steronz** confident is in his belief about that voice on the tape. I mean, two forensic guys have already come out saying that it’s not Zimmerman. If that’s not persuasive evidence that he’s wrong, I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that he finds me unconvincing too. But still. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/2860 "2012-04-02T21:04:47Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Here are your hoops your theory must take us through: > > 1. That Zimmerman kept his weapon concealed up until the moment he fired the gun. Even though his agenda from the beginning was the keep Martin from getting away. Problem is, you still haven’t come up with any likely explanation for how he thought he could restrain Martin without putting his gun into play. Holding his hand? > > 2. That Martin was about to get away from his grasp, and that’s why he shot him. To keep him from getting away. Not exactly a hoop, but I’m not convinced that Zimmerman was so invested in restraining Martin that he was willing to murder the guy to do it. > > 3. That Martin was so fearless, so sure of his indestructability, that its unlikely he would have been the voice yelling for help. Even though he wasn’t the agressor or carrying a weapon. Compared to the man with the gun, he was defenseless. But you’re saying his 17 year-old stoicism would have kept his mouth shut. Okay. Big hoop. > > 4. That Zimmerman was yelling for help like a desperate madman as a way of rallying his neighbors to stop this a thug from getting away. Why he would think Mary, Jon, and them would be capable of stopping the unstoppable menance that was Martin is beyond me, but you think this is likelier than Martin yelling for help. > > So tell me what hoops am I making you jump through with my theory that Zimmerman panicked when Martin started yelling? Please see my response to **stoid** and also see **Jack Batty’s** excellent summation of **steronz’s** position that I think sums my own up as well. Specifics 1. I doubt it was concealed until the very moment of firing. I also doubt he approached Martin with weapon in hand. There is a nice middle ground there. 2. He is on record frustrated that “they always get away” a spur of the moment passionate response makes more sense to me than. “The cops are going to believe the kid over me. BANG!” 3. Clearly you aren’t digesting what I have written. Go back, I agreed that all or most of the yelling could be Martin. Upon reflecting on my response to **Stoid** , Martin could have started yelling if the gun came out during the struggle. Struggling on the ground with his assailant, I can believe that a 17 year old athlete might be capable of controlling the weapon arm of the shooter for a bit. In my mind this would be a good point for plaintive wails for help as Martin realizes this altercation he is already deeply into just became life or death. 4. Nope. I don’t believe much or any of the cries are Zimmerman. I wouldn’t be surprised though if he uttered a help once or twice though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=142) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=144)