# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 155
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3081 "2012-04-04T01:37:11Z")
If the witness says two contradictory things, then we need to toss them out of the “reliable evidence” pile. It is clear the witness has said–or is quoted as saying–two different things. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3082 "2012-04-04T01:37:48Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If the witness says two contradictory things, then we need to toss them out of the “reliable evidence” pile. > > It is clear the witness has said–or is quoted as saying–two different things. Can you quote the exact two sentences that were contradictory? How about this: Anderson Cooper: “You say the shooter was on top?” Witness: “I can’t really say.” Is that explicit enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3083 "2012-04-04T01:40:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You are yet to address exactly how that translates in your fantasies to “he saw the larger man on top”. Only because that’s what the article you posted in this thread said. You gave us the material; now you want complain that we read it? Maybe next time you decide to link us to an article to make some devastating point, you’ll proofread it before hand to make sure it doesn’t sabotage your position. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3084 "2012-04-04T01:41:09Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Only because that’s what the article you posted in this thread said. Except the article didn’t say it. You made it up. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3085 "2012-04-04T01:42:56Z")
We need a “heaven help us” smilie. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3086 "2012-04-04T01:53:22Z")
Nah, we need a “bless your heart” smiley. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3087 "2012-04-04T02:05:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Like **monstro** said, the fact that an action is illegal means jack shit in determining whether or not Zimmerman stupidly decided to whip out his gun to accomplish his primary goal of securing Martin. > > It’s against the law to kill someone for reasons other than self defense, and the penalty for doing that is a lot stiffer than 3 years in the pen. Guess that’s a wrap then, huh? Zimmerman didn’t break the law because we must assume he wouldn’t have broken the law. Is that right? > > Why do we extend this insane benefit of the doubt to Zimmerman but not to the victim of his bullet? So you are assuming that Zimmerman had already decided to kill Martin before he drew his gun? They is no ‘securing’ in Florida law. If he pulls his gun to ‘secure’ Martin and the police will arrest Zimmerman and Martin returns to Green’s house and eats his Skittles and watchs the NBA All Stars. You can’t claim that Zimmerman was ignorant of the law. It’s covered in the CCW class. Whipping out his gun isn’t stupid, it is a serious crime and Martin was the only witness. If you want to say it was premeditated murder that is fine, but don’t assume Zimmerman was as ignorant of the law as you are. Since Martin was a juvenile with no record, if he had punched Zimmerman, it would be probation. He could have seriously injured Zimmerman and still got probation. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3088 "2012-04-04T02:08:33Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He did say that the larger man was on top. I put it in bold just for you. So you are saying Martin was on top? Martin was 6’0’ and Zimmerman was 5’ 9’ ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3089 "2012-04-04T02:14:28Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > So you are saying Martin was on top? Martin was 6’0’ and Zimmerman was 5’ 9’ When I read the word “larger”, I don’t think “taller”. I think in terms of width and/or mass. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3090 "2012-04-04T02:18:13Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > So you are assuming that Zimmerman had already decided to kill Martin before he drew his gun? No. > [@](#): > > They is no ‘securing’ in Florida law. If he pulls his gun to ‘secure’ Martin and the police will arrest Zimmerman and Martin returns to Green’s house and eats his Skittles and watchs the NBA All Stars. You can’t claim that Zimmerman was ignorant of the law. It’s covered in the CCW class. All of this assumes Zimmerman is a clear thinker when he’s overdosing on adrenaline. It’s not an matter of ignorance, but judgment. He exercised poor judgment when he pursued Martin, so there is nothing stopping him from exercising poor judgment with his gun. > [@](#): > > Whipping out his gun isn’t stupid, it is a serious crime and Martin was the only witness. Like i said before, _so is shooting someone without just cause_. And? So what? I’m sure Zimmerman isn’t ignorant of this fact either, but pardon me for not believing he’s incapable of murder or manslaughter just because of this knowledge. I don’t think you realize how silly this line of argumentation is. It’s worse than when you were harping about Martins hoodie, and that was pretty damn bad. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3091 "2012-04-04T02:23:22Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Since Martin was a juvenile with no record, if he had punched Zimmerman, it would be probation. He could have seriously injured Zimmerman and still got probation. But punching someone is a crime, and surely the penalty of this crime would deter Martin. Probation would mean being on his parents shit list. Ergo, henceforth, we should conclude he wouldn’t have punched him. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3092 "2012-04-04T02:30:45Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > And it goes to an explanation for the behavior that Martin witnessed. He hadn’t been there before, probably a nicer neighborhood than he was used to. He was walking around staring, checking things out. > > Could he have been a little lost? Turned around? Are a lot of the structures in the development similar? Like townhouses or that? Dark, light rain, unfamiliar neighborhood, not much of a stretch to believe he might have been wandering around trying to find his street. I don’t think he was wondering around. Based on what his girlfriend said he ran into the clubhouse to get out of the rain. I think he would be in a hurry to get back to Green’s house. because the NBA All Star game started at 7:00pm. IIRC, I think the clubhouse was the first place Zimmerman saw him. He may have been disoriented, but he seemed to be making a beeline for Green’s townhome after Zimmerman saw him. I’m not a basketball fan. Would missing the All-Star game when 3 Heat players are on the East squad be a big deal? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3093 "2012-04-04T02:36:50Z")
I don’t think it’s safe to assume that the basketball game was that hugely important to Martin. People who really care about watching something usually don’t leave the house right at the last minute to grab some snacks. I’m thinking getting out of the house, spending some phone time with his girl, taking a break from his little brother, were probably all more important to him than a basketball game. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3094 "2012-04-04T02:36:54Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But punching someone is a crime, and surely the penalty of this crime would deter Martin. Probation would mean being on his parents shit list. Ergo, henceforth, we should conclude he wouldn’t have punched him. Please tell me you are making a joke here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3095 "2012-04-04T02:39:28Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I don’t think legitimacy is to be defined exclusively by the accused. He can claim it, but I think the state can argue that once the people who trained to deal with any potential criminal activity have specifically told you not to do that anymore, you can no longer argue that your doing it is legimate. > > I agree it’s sticky, but that’s why I underlined the part about it not mattering how short the period of time is - and the legislature is presumed not to include meaningless clauses when crafting laws, so that must have been included for a reason. > > If getting the jury to convict him for stalking were necessary to convict him of some greater crime in the actual killing itself, making it important and worth fighting for, and I were the prosecutor, I’d argue that Zimmerman _did_ do it repeatedly: once before he was told not to, then again after. There’s your series of two, separated not merely by a tiny interval of time, which would be an incredibly flimsy sell, but by an extremely meaningful event that actually should have prevented the _second_ time from ever happening. I write three separate letters to you, each intended to cause you emotional distress and serving no legitimate purpose. I put them in one envelope and mail them to you. Stalking? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3096 "2012-04-04T02:46:39Z")
One tiny factual thing that’s been bothering me in reading these threads–Zimmerman was not told not to follow Martin. The 911 operator simply said “we don’t need you to do that” when Zimmerman said he was following Martin. The 911 operator made a factual statement, not a command. It is not correct to paraphrase the exchange as “Zimmerman was told not to follow Martin.” (And, of course, it wouldn’t amount to a whole lot if the 911 operator did in fact say “I hereby command you not to follow that man,” but that’s another matter.) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3097 "2012-04-04T02:47:36Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Please tell me you are making a joke here. Of course I am. It’s Joel’s argument twisted around to show the absurdity in his reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3098 "2012-04-04T02:51:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But punching someone is a crime, and surely the penalty of this crime would deter Martin. Probation would mean being on his parents shit list. Ergo, henceforth, we should conclude he wouldn’t have punched him. By your reasoning Martin wouldn’t have done the things that got him suspended from school in first place. I don’t think pleasing his parents was at the top of his priority list. I don’t think getting a slap on the wrist is a great a deterrent as getting a needle in the arm. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3099 "2012-04-04T02:52:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This conclusion requires you to know where Zimmerman started running after him. But you don’t know this. He started from his truck which was by the cut through. 100-200 feet away from Martin’s body. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3100 "2012-04-04T03:00:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Your explanation requires Martin to act with the intelligence of a 7 year old and the irrationality of an Irishman. What rational person becomes so terrified of a person in a truck staring at them while talking on a cellphone that they take of running and hide? What person, when so terrified for their life, fails to yell for help, call 911, seek the safety of a home, and stops to hide with a head start? > > It just doesn’t make a lick of sense. All he knew was that someone was following him. Where are you getting that, at that point, he was terrified for his life? I’ve been followed by someone and my course of action was to take a different route and not head directly to my destination. I also do the same when out dog-walking at night and there’s someone I’m a little wary of, because I’m a woman out alone at night and it’s no hassle to change my route, whereas being attacked would be a big hassle. I don’t scream, call 911 and knock on people’s doors just because I’m wary of someone following me. And a black teenage boy knocking on a stranger’s door for help in an unfamiliar rich area? Just because some dude might be following him? Yeah, right. (Also, “irrationality of an Irishman”? I’m not going to make a big deal of it, but that’s a slur I’ve never even heard before). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=154) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=156)