# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 156
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3101 "2012-04-04T03:08:09Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t think it’s safe to assume that the basketball game was that hugely important to Martin. People who really care about watching something usually don’t leave the house right at the last minute to grab some snacks. I checked and he had plenty of time. The tipoff wasn’t until 7:37. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3102 "2012-04-04T03:10:25Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > One tiny factual thing that’s been bothering me in reading these threads–Zimmerman was not told not to follow Martin. The 911 operator simply said “we don’t need you to do that” when Zimmerman said he was following Martin. The 911 operator made a factual statement, not a command. It is not correct to paraphrase the exchange as “Zimmerman was told not to follow Martin.” > > (And, of course, it wouldn’t amount to a whole lot if the 911 operator did in fact say “I hereby command you not to follow that man,” but that’s another matter.) “We don’t need you to do that” can be a very polite way of issuing an order. Most people, on hearing a 911 operator saying “we don’t need you to do that,” would stop whatever action was being referred to. As you (almost) say, he was under no obligation to do what the 911 operator said anyway, but the above is the reason people are parsing it as an order. And it certainly sounds like he was doing something the 911 operator, and by extension the police, didn’t want him to do. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3103 "2012-04-04T03:14:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Of course I am. It’s Joel’s argument twisted around to show the absurdity in his reasoning. I was twisting your argument when you said 1 year for brandishing wasn’t a deterrent. I just kept adding years to see if you would admit that Zimmerman would be deterred. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3104 "2012-04-04T03:18:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > He started from his truck which was by the cut through. 100-200 feet away from Martin’s body. Once he lost sight of Martin, you don’t know what he did. He could have walked back to his truck, he could have followed behind Martin in the direction he’d headed, or he could have run down towards the back entrance to head the kid off at the pass. I’m leaning towards the last possibility because that would explain how he spent those extra minutes. He probably tried to catch up with Martin at the far end of Twin Trees. (He told us where the kid was headed on the 911 call.) But Martin wasn’t there because he’d stopped walking farther up, close to where Zimmerman had lost sight of him initially. So Zimmerman comes walking up the pathway, looking for the kid. The two end up encountering each other eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3105 "2012-04-04T03:21:38Z")
Scifisam, I suppose you have a cite for your claim about what most people would do? And I suppose that sentence could be an order where there’s a relationship between the sayer and hearer such that noncompliance has consequences, but that’s not the case here. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3106 "2012-04-04T03:22:50Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I was twisting your argument when you said 1 year for brandishing wasn’t a deterrent. I just kept adding years to see if you would admit that Zimmerman would be deterred. 😃 If prison sentences deterred people from committing crimes, we wouldn’t have people in prison. I never said that 1 year wasnt a deterrent, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3107 "2012-04-04T03:39:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I can’t find anything wrong with what Martin did. Nothing screams “stupid” to me, Besides the theft, graffiti, and drugs? The original picture of Martin as a young teenager who looks like he swallowed a Disney movie are contrasted by his most recent image as a 17 year old on suspension. There’s a lot more “street” than the Back Street Boys image originally portrayed. At this point Martin is not exactly on the right track in his life. Given that Martin was seen on top of Zimmerman and that he initiated contact with him, I find it more likely that he sucker punched him first when Zimmerman challenged his reason for being in the neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3108 "2012-04-04T03:46:06Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > And a black teenage boy knocking on a stranger’s door for help in an unfamiliar rich area? Just because some dude might be following him? Yeah, right. It wasn’t a rich area. A lot of the townhomes were rentals. I’d say lower middle class. Once you get into the gated communities with actual guards or your kids go to Lake Mary Schools, then that is a different story. It probably isn’t a great idea to knock on strange doors in any neighborhood. Especially one that has a problem with burglaries. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3109 "2012-04-04T03:53:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Besides the theft, graffiti, and drugs? The original picture of Martin as a young teenager who looks like he swallowed a Disney movie are contrasted by his most recent image as a 17 year old on suspension. There’s a lot more “street” than the Back Street Boys image originally portrayed. At this point Martin is not exactly on the right track in his life. > > Given that Martin was seen on top of Zimmerman and that he initiated contact with him, I find it more likely that he sucker punched him first when Zimmerman challenged his reason for being in the neighborhood. Oh please. He was, at most, guilty of what I like to call “being a 17 year old boy.” The kid was applying for colleges, for Chrissakes. Know who else was a weed-smoking, shit-talking, suspension-getting, graffito-tagging dipshit when he was a teenager? Me. And I turned out all right, without anybody’s help. Much better than most of the neighborhood watch types I’ve known, in fact, who tend to be motivated less by a desire to protect their community (or whatever) than by a desire to fill up the vast amount of free time that they have thanks to being too stunted to interact with the rest of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3110 "2012-04-04T04:08:57Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > … vast amount of free time that they have thanks to being too stunted to interact with the rest of humanity. Says the guy on the internet message board. 😛 Sorry, couldn’t resist. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3111 "2012-04-04T04:10:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If prison sentences deterred people from committing crimes, we wouldn’t have people in prison. > > I never said that 1 year wasnt a deterrent, btw. You said in post 2941 > [@](#): > > Brandishing a weapon is illegal, yes. I’m not sure why folks are assuming this means much of anything in terms of Zimmerman’s likely conduct. He chased after a person after he was advised not to do so by 911. Doesn’t this demonstrate he’s not above coloring out of the lines? Pulling out his weapon unlawfully is only one step removed from this. That sure reads like you thought that Zimmerman wasn’t being deterred. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3112 "2012-04-04T04:13:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Besides the theft, graffiti, and drugs? The original picture of Martin as a young teenager who looks like he swallowed a Disney movie are contrasted by his most recent image as a 17 year old on suspension. There’s a lot more “street” than the Back Street Boys image originally portrayed. At this point Martin is not exactly on the right track in his life. > > Given that Martin was seen on top of Zimmerman and that he initiated contact with him, I find it more likely that he sucker punched him first when Zimmerman challenged his reason for being in the neighborhood. Theft? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3113 "2012-04-04T04:16:10Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If the witness says two contradictory things, then we need to toss them out of the “reliable evidence” pile. > > It is clear the witness has said–or is quoted as saying–two different things. That is how I feel about virtually everything I know about this case. I think at this point every witness statement or piece of potential evidence has been shown in two or three different lights by the media. In some cases the witnesses themselves very well may have said conflicting things, in some cases we may be getting slightly different quotes from different journalists who have reached out to interview the same people, thus creating different perceptions. Because of the massive degree of publicity and the fact anyone even tangentially involved in this has probably been contacted by dozens of reporters who all will relay different quoted remarks _and_ the fact some people we _know_ have actually changed their story I find it at this point to be almost uninteresting what one witness is reported to have said in a newspaper or anything else really. For all we know another article will come out tomorrow saying something totally different. I’m at the point now I don’t know that I can trust any evidence in this case that doesn’t come out on CourtTV in a sworn statement (and even then there’s only so much trust you can put in people.) I hope if this goes to trial it isn’t a war of conflicting witness statements (a certain acquittal–as such a scenario should be), simply because I think the public needs some firmer resolution so hopefully detailed physical evidence eventually becomes available that is conclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3114 "2012-04-04T04:22:05Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > Oh please. He was, at most, guilty of what I like to call “being a 17 year old boy.” The kid was applying for colleges, for Chrissakes. yep, typical 17 year old on suspension for theft, graffiti and drugs at school. > [@black\_rabbit](#): > > Know who else was a weed-smoking, shit-talking, suspension-getting, graffito-tagging dipshit when he was a teenager? Me. And I turned out all right, without anybody’s help. Much better than most of the neighborhood watch types I’ve known, in fact, who tend to be motivated less by a desire to protect their community (or whatever) than by a desire to fill up the vast amount of free time that they have thanks to being too stunted to interact with the rest of humanity. And Martin may very well have turned out alright. But like you, he thought little of other people’s property at that age to the point he damaged or stole it. 17 year olds lack the capacity of reason at that age which accounts for the stupidity of taking drugs and drug paraphernalia to school. Nothing you’ve said negates the probability he started the fight. You’re trying to make a case that he didn’t deserve to die based on the weight of his sins and that was never the question. He didn’t deserve to die. I’m pointing out the likelihood that he did something stupid which lead to his unfortunate demise. I stand by my earlier posts that challenged those who didn’t think there was a legal challenge to be made against Zimmerman. Martin’s recent acts of youthful stupidity doesn’t change anything of what I said in those posts but it also doesn’t negate the likelihood that he instigated a beat down. I’m not saying he did it, I’m saying (IMO) there’s a better than 50% chance he started it based on what has come to light. I think he went off on Zimmerman when he was verbally challenged for being in the neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3115 "2012-04-04T04:27:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If prison sentences deterred people from committing crimes, we wouldn’t have people in prison. AMEN to that! Which is why both “hate crime” and the death penalty are bullshit. > [@Bricker](#): > > I write three separate letters to you, each intended to cause you emotional distress and serving no legitimate purpose. I put them in one envelope and mail them to you. > > Stalking? No. Three pieces of paper (or three letters on how ever many pieces of paper with three salutations and signatures signifying that they should be understood to be three separate letters) still constitute one act if placed in one envelope and sent one time. Even if they are in three separate envelopes inside one larger envelope. You can write a thousand letters, you can write a book. The only act that qualified was _ **sending** _ them to me. That was done once. I could only _ **receive** _ them once. To find otherwise would logically mean that the act of writing the letter to me was itself a criminal act, and that would pretty much mean you’ve made it illegal to write nasty letters to people in the privacy of your own home, no matter what you end up doing with them. The contents of the envelope happen in this case to be words on paper chosen and assembled in a particular way, but as an act of stalking they could be dead puppies or a voodoo doll or a standee of Snooki or a bag of bloody fingers cut from corpses or a combination of all of them. It’s not the object count, it’s the act count. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3116 "2012-04-04T04:28:21Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Theft? the jewelry found in his possession. [Call it what you like.](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i5eFIX6P0izEGfMjnuEBO9Ra6Wqw?docId=258e35b564b340bdb774d8d3ffb40d50) possession of jewelry in his backpack that he claimed a friend gave him (who he wouldn’t identify). ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3117 "2012-04-04T04:28:39Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > Oh please. He was, at most, guilty of what I like to call “being a 17 year old boy.” The kid was applying for colleges, for Chrissakes. Do you have confirmation on that? I read that also, but he was only a junior, so it sounds kind of iffy. Had he even took his SATs? I took my SATs between my junior and senior year, but I didn’t apply anywhere until my SATs came back. Are the rules that different now? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3118 "2012-04-04T04:38:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > At this point Martin is not exactly on the right track in his life. Gosh, do you think? > [@](#): > > Given that Martin was seen on top of Zimmerman and that he initiated contact with him I don’t think this can be emphasized enough; **you have absolutely no idea who initiated contact**. Anyone on this message board who claims to know for sure who started the fight is full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3119 "2012-04-04T04:43:27Z")
I’ve read this entire thread and nothing has emerged to contradict the most logical scenario. All of Zimmermans words and deeds lead me to believe he wanted to detain Martin for the police. I’m just not buying Martin jumping him as he returned to his truck. I also think the girlfriend’s account is being discounted for the wrong reasons. From there, there was a scuffle and in a rage, George Zimmerman snuffed out a life, IMHO. This case was dead in the water when this thread started. I’m tired of hearing about the goddamn grand jury. The SA wasn’t going to do dick, much less present to a GJ after declining to prosecute. There wasn’t going to be any legal process without an uproar from the press and the public. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3120 "2012-04-04T05:25:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Gosh, do you think? > I don’t think this can be emphasized enough; **you have absolutely no idea who initiated contact**. Anyone on this message board who claims to know for sure who started the fight is full of shit. Yes, we have his girlfriend describing what she heard. Martin initiated the conversation. I’m putting 2 and 2 together. The scenario is conjecture on my part which I posited as IMO. Of course, I would think the word “moderator” would imply you read posts in their entirety and would have caught the word “IMO”. Thanks for dragging the conversation down a notch by saying I’m full of shit. Good job of moderating. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=155) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=157)