# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 173
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3441 "2012-04-09T04:01:15Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I’d like to see a show of hands from those who worry about violating the privacy of a person who has been killed in the street, and specifically as such a concern relates to the police investigating the killing? > > Anyone? > > Pardon me? What am I missing here… Martin was the _ **victim.** _ The _ **dead** _ victim. Since when do we worry about the _ **dead** _ victim’s privacy and getting warrants for the _ **dead** _ victim’s phone records? Is that how it actually works? Just because Martin is dead doesn’t mean he gives up his right to privacy and it certainly doesn’t mean everybody in his phone gives up their rights. The trouble is that Florida courts have ruled that any information in your cell phone is fair game. I don’t know if those rules have been tested in Federal Court. I know at least one attorney that advises his clients to lock their cell phones and delete any incriminating information on their phones ASAP. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3442 "2012-04-09T04:09:28Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > So Bricker, I’m asking you: do dead people, especially dead victims of killings, still have the same “rights” that living people do, requiring the same steps be taking to access their papers and phone calls and whatnot? No, dead people have no cognizable Fourth Amendment rights. But yes, the same or similar steps are required to gain access to their phone calls. Papers, maybe not so much, because police can search with no warrant without worry of exclusion. But when they require a third party, like a carrier, to reveal information, then they need paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3443 "2012-04-09T04:13:11Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Just because Martin is dead doesn’t mean he gives up his right to privacy yes, actually, it does, at least his Fourth Amendment rights. > [@](#): > > and it certainly doesn’t mean everybody in his phone gives up their rights. True, but no one else has standing to assert a Fourth Amendment interest in Martin’s phone. The problems here are administrative and procedural, not legal. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3444 "2012-04-09T04:40:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > yes, actually, it does, at least his Fourth Amendment rights. > > True, but no one else has standing to assert a Fourth Amendment interest in Martin’s phone. > > The problems here are administrative and procedural, not legal. Thanks for the information…that’s what I thought. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3445 "2012-04-09T05:47:10Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Why the attitude? > > Your answer appears to be “yes, it actually does change once someone is dead, but sometimes it is an issue proving it at first.” If that’s incorrect, I welcome clarification. No, my answer is actually “no”. It doesn’t change, for the very simple reason I mentioned in my previous post. Without a subpoena, the phone company ain’t giving out the records, period. Because they have no way of independently knowing he’s dead. So as far as their legal department is concerned, he’s got all the rights a still living person has until they see that court order. Anything else subjects them to lawsuits they can’t win. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3446 "2012-04-09T05:49:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > yes, actually, it does, at least his Fourth Amendment rights. I think you are lawyering here . Trayvon still has his rights of confidentiality even after death. If someone had published Martin’s autopsy photo’s they could get in serious trouble in Florida. [http://people.howstuffworks.com/lose-right-to-privacy-when-you-die3.htm](http://people.howstuffworks.com/lose-right-to-privacy-when-you-die3.htm) [http://www.digitalpassing.com/2011/03/30/right-publicity-right-privacy-after-death/](http://www.digitalpassing.com/2011/03/30/right-publicity-right-privacy-after-death/) [http://www.theprivacybook.com/privacy/Digital-Rights-After-Death.html](http://www.theprivacybook.com/privacy/Digital-Rights-After-Death.html) When you are talking about a minor, there is an additional wrinkle that the t-mobile account might not be in his name, but in the name of his mother or father, since he was a minor and probably didn’t have a credit card. He might be a second line on someone else’s account. Actually reading the articles makes you think. Who do I want to have access to my email when I die? Who do I want to make sure **doesn’t** have access to my email after I die. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3447 "2012-04-09T05:53:06Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Like others have said, there’s nothing immediately important that you can get based on that information. The police would have to wait to get a warrant and for the cell phone company to respond to the request. Better to interview witnesses and try to track down Martin’s family. They couldn’t have known that though right? Wouldn’t it be prudent to check how the phone had been used in the moments leading up to his death? It’s very easy to be a monday morning qb on this sort of thing - but it strikes me as the sort of thing that should be checked. And of course, any privacy, court order or other concerns are predicated on the idea that the account was in Trayvon’s name. Was that the case, or was the phone is his father’s / mother’s name? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3448 "2012-04-09T13:42:48Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Just because Martin is dead doesn’t mean he gives up his right to privacy and it certainly doesn’t mean everybody in his phone gives up their rights. > [@Bricker](#): > > yes, actually, it does, at least his Fourth Amendment rights. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I think you are lawyering here . Trayvon still has his rights of confidentiality even after death. If someone had published Martin’s autopsy photo’s they could get in serious trouble in Florida. How else but “lawyering” might one determine the answer to the LEGAL question of what LEGAL rights are retained after death? Shall we consult medieval French poetry experts? Shall we examine the collected works of Increase Mather to shed light on the issue? Might we discover some illuminating insights in Mindy Kaling’s _tour de force_, " Is Everyone Hanging Out Without Me? (And Other Concerns)?" There’s no question that the law protects some aspects of privacy even after death. However, phone records aren’t on that list. This is not to say that phone records can be instantly handed over; the phone provider has to be ordered by a court to do so. But there is no privacy defense his estate could raise to protest it. And a moment’s thought will make clear how inapposite your analogy of autopsy photos is. If autopsy photos, released to the public, are violative of the deceased’s privacy, how much more violative is the actual autopsy? And yet the police, or more specifically the medical examiner, conducts that autopsy and provides extensive photos of the autopsy to… drum roll… the police. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3449 "2012-04-09T13:43:31Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I don’t understand why you don’t thing that DeeDee’s statement is important. She directly contradicts what Zimmerman’s says about the words exchanged between Martin and Zimmerman. If the jury believes her, that might make the difference between a conviction and an acquittal. I’m not saying her statement isn’t important, but the bits we’ve heard don’t strike me as extremely damaging to Zimmerman. Like, say that surveillance video does or the fact that he delayed hospital care until the following day yet insists his nose was broken and his head was battered on concrete. If the EMT record does not bear out Zimmerman’s injuries, nothing else will really matter from what I can see. It’s not as though she’s claiming she heard the sounds of Zimmerman pistol whipping Martin in the face or something. Much of what she says actually is consistent with some of Zimmerman’s story (e.g., that Martin bolted away when he first realized he was being followed). What I don’t understand–and maybe someone can help me out with this one–is how Crump and Tracy Martin could get access to Martin’s phone records–but we’re supposed to believe that the cops could not without a whole bunch of legal rigamorole. It’s unlikely Trayvon’s telephone records were coming to Tracy’s home (I get the sense he didn’t live with him on a full-time basis, but maybe I’m wrong). So I’d be interested in learning how that happened. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3450 "2012-04-09T13:53:42Z")
The phone could have been in the father’s name or maybe they knew his password. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3451 "2012-04-09T13:58:40Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s unlikely Trayvon’s telephone records were coming to Tracy’s home (I get the sense he didn’t live with him on a full-time basis, but maybe I’m wrong). So I’d be interested in learning how that happened. This sort of thing its pointless to try and second guess what is logical - my father in law’s phone is in my BIL name, but the bill comes to our house… So sometimes logic is completely backarsewards ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3452 "2012-04-09T14:02:49Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > The phone could have been in the father’s name or maybe they knew his password. Which makes sense because he was a minor. I hope the cops considered asking Martin’s parents to assist in unlocking the mysteries contained in his phone. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3453 "2012-04-09T14:06:51Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > They couldn’t have known that though right? > > Wouldn’t it be prudent to check how the phone had been used in the moments leading up to his death? It’s very easy to be a monday morning qb on this sort of thing - but it strikes me as the sort of thing that should be checked. Sure. But in terms of investigative priority, when you have a five-person detective unit for the entire department, it might not be the first thing on the agenda. > [@](#): > > And of course, any privacy, court order or other concerns are predicated on the idea that the account was in Trayvon’s name. Was that the case, or was the phone is his father’s / mother’s name? I don’t know. Did the police ask? Did the parents refuse, or advise them Treyvon had his own phone account? I don’t know. Which is why it is ludicrous to declare that the police were incompetent – without knowing those facts, how can you possibly reach that conclusion? And what amazes me is no one – not one person – has come along in light of changing information to unambiguously acknowledge they were wrong about facts. Much hay was made in these threads about the dramatic size differential between the 250 pound Zimmerman and the 140 pound Martin: > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Only one person in the exchange would be expected to be screaming like that, and it’s NOT the 250 lbs armed individual who hunted Martin down like a rabid animal. Now we learn (maybe!!) that Zimmerman isn’t 250 at all, from the video and more [recent reporting](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?scp=1&sq=george%20zimmerman%20170&st=Search): > [@New York Times](#): > > However it started, witnesses described to the 911 dispatcher what resulted: the neighborhood watch coordinator, 5 foot 9 and 170 pounds, and the visitor, 6 foot 1 and 150, wrestling on the ground. Nowhere have I seen **you with the face** post a _mea culpa_ about falsely adding EIGHTY pounds to Zimmerman, or subtracting ten pounds from Martin, the cumulative effect of which was of obvious value in painting a picture. And I’m sure **you with the face** believes herself blameless – she was just going by published reports. But that’s my point: early published reports are often of dubious accuracy. They repeat and amplify each others’ errors. How much of the racial overtone this case has was unfairly fanned by the Today show broadcast of the 911 call as “He’s up to no good… he looks black?” And when more accurate informaiton comes along, do those people who trumpeted the error trumpet the correction with equal vigor? Not by my count – I count far more pasts with Zimmerman’s weight at 250 than i do now; no one seems eager to apologize about that one. Why must we leap on these things like this? Why are you even interested in a board whose stated mission is “fighting ignorance” if you are so little interested in waiting for substantiated fact? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3454 "2012-04-09T14:10:42Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > The phone could have been in the father’s name or maybe they knew his password. Absolutely. If I were to learn that the police failed to ask the parents for account access or the password, I’d certainly agree they were incompetent for that failure alone. But since I don’t know if they asked, I can’t reach any such conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3455 "2012-04-09T14:30:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nowhere have I seen **you with the face** post a _mea culpa_ about falsely adding EIGHTY pounds to Zimmerman, or subtracting ten pounds from Martin, the cumulative effect of which was of obvious value in painting a picture. Wow, you’re creeping me out by stalking my posts. Why are you so emotionally invested in what I have to say about this case? You have a family and a career…a whole life outside of these boards. Maybe you oughta pay attention to that instead of my opinions. Because this is just pathetic. But as for mea culpas, you owe \*me \*one. On 3/28/12, in the “Are you Team Trayvon” thread in the Pit, I posted [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14912392&postcount=364): > [@ywtf](#): > > **I will say this, Z doesn’t look as big as his mug shot would lead us to believe. A fight between him and Martin wouldnt necessarily be mismatched**. I urge you to resist the urge to embarrass yourself any further. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3456 "2012-04-09T14:41:45Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Wow, you’re creeping me out by stalking my posts. Why are you so emotionally invested in what I have to say about this case? You have a family and a career…a whole life outside of these boards. Maybe you oughta pay attention to that instead of my opinions. Because this is just pathetic. > > But as for mea culpas, you owe \*me \*one. On 3/28/12, in the “Are you Team Trayvon” thread in the Pit, I posted [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14912392&postcount=364): > > > [@](#): > > > > I will say this, Z doesn’t look as big as his mug shot would lead us to believe. A fight between him and Martin wouldnt necessarily be mismatched. > > I urge you to resist the urge to embarrass yourself any further. That, by you, is a _mea culpa_ of the same strength as the many posts you made arguing the mismatch created by the higher weight? That, by your standards, is any kind of a _mea culpa_ at all? This is what seriously bugs me about you, **you**. You apparently have not the slightest concern about being wrong. You throw up all these forceful strongly worded posts, saying that a 250 pound man hunted Martin down like a rabid animal. And then, when called on an error, your defense is, “Hey, get a life! Why are you stalking me?” I’m not stalking you. I’m reading the board. I remember your posts to these threads. Now, let’s try this again: [Mea culpa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mea_culpa) is a Latin phrase that means “my fault,” or “my mistake.” Where, in that post or any other, do you acknowledge that you made a mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3457 "2012-04-09T14:56:17Z")
A small sampling of one side of the coin: > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He’s 250 lbs and she’s 140lbs. > > What then? Are we really supposed to let this man’s statement bias how we look all the other evidence that points to rape and homocide? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > At any rate, if a 250 lbs stranger came charging towards you, yelling “Who are you, and what are you up to?” in the dark of the night, you can’t convice me you wouldn’t be out of your mind in fear. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > At any rate, if a 250 lbs stranger came charging towards you, yelling “Who are you, and what are you up to?” in the dark of the night, you can’t convice me you wouldn’t be out of your mind in fear. > [@you with the face](#): > > That said, Zimmerman’s claim that he was confronted by Martin on the street doesn’t mesh well with the facts, even in the absence of this call. Even if we could accept that Martin was brazen enough to attack him without provocation, it is implausible that Zimmerman–an 250 lbs armed man, remember–would be too weak to stand up for himself > [@you with the face](#): > > I guess if Zimmerman had asserted that Martin bent down and carried his 250 lbs ass down the street, you’d think that’s plausible too. And here’s the post that apologizes for the errors and makes it all better: > [@Are you Team Trayvon or Team Zimmerman?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/364): > > I will say this, Z doesn’t look as big as his mug shot would lead us to believe. A fight between him and Martin wouldnt necessarily be mismatched. > > That said, if he’s expecting us to believe he was in a fight serious enough to shoot his opponent to death, I’m gonna need to see some receipts. Some blood. Some scratches. Some bruises. Some black eyes. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3458 "2012-04-09T15:03:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That, by you, is a _mea culpa_ of the same strength as the many posts you made arguing the mismatch created by the higher weight? That, by your standards, is any kind of a _mea culpa_ at all? Again, I have to ask you why do you care so much about my opinions? Why should me saying mea culpa even matter to you? Are my views _that_ important, that you have to hang out my every word like this? I feel like Sebastion in the Neverending Story. Except instead of screaming my mother’s name to save your world from being devoured by The Nothing, I have to scream “MEA CULPA!” You can’t demand that I disembowel myself in shame over incorrectly assuming the press was right when they reported Zimmerman weighed 250 lbs (for shame!), when you can’t even acknowledge you were wrong in your assertions about me and what I’ve written. Make the madness stop. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3459 "2012-04-09T15:54:24Z")
NBC is reporting that the special prosecutor is not going to bring this case the the already scheduled grand jury. There is no announcement about whether or not the prosecutor will bring charges through any other means. I’m rather surprised. I expected one of two things. One is that the prosecutor thought she had a strong case, she would judt bring charges on her own. Or, if she thought it was a weak case, the would bring it to the GJ, and let that system take the public hit for refusing to indite. What does it really mean? Most likely, she thinks the investigation hasn’t gathered enough information yet to make a solid case, but hopes to with more time. But that’s just my WAG. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3460 "2012-04-09T15:59:54Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What I don’t understand–and maybe someone can help me out with this one–is how Crump and Tracy Martin could get access to Martin’s phone records–but we’re supposed to believe that the cops could not without a whole bunch of legal rigamorole. It’s unlikely Trayvon’s telephone records were coming to Tracy’s home (I get the sense he didn’t live with him on a full-time basis, but maybe I’m wrong). So I’d be interested in learning how that happened. It would be very simple, if Trayvon was on family plan, either with his mother, or his father. I have five phones on mine. I can access every call record of every phone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=172) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=174)