# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 180
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3581 "2012-04-10T22:15:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. > > Well, just so we’re clear, the law doesn’t match your opinion. Oh, I know that. Florida is fucked up beyond repair. > [@](#): > > And although I think the Florida version of the SYG concept is fatally flawed, I don’t subscribe to your version either. Merely stepping up to someone and demanding to know what they’re doing is not license for your subject to punch you… Both in my opinion, and in the law of pretty much every state. > > But I appreciate your forthright approach to the discussion. Would it make you feel better if i modified my position, and allowed Martin to be prosecuted for assault, had he survived? But that does not absolve Zimmerman of manslaughter, IMO. If Martin punches Zimmerman, and Zimmerman pulls a gun, he is guilty by escalating the severity of the altercation that he is ultimately responsible for initiating. If he has to choose between the risk of dying of a beating, or shooting Martin, I don’t see why that absolves him from legal responsibility for manslaughter. He stuck his nose into someone else’s business without justification; he can either risk whatever injuries the beating inflicts, or be prosecuted for manslaughter if he decides to pull the gun and kill Martin. In no way should we reward vigilante behavior just because he made sure the other party cannot testify against him. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3582 "2012-04-10T22:15:13Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Yes I am pretty sure the court would find in your favor in this instance. I know of no duty to retreat clauses that are exception-less. In practice it is a reasonable measure to ensure people don’t shoot first and asses the situation later. Can you show an example of a law with any such exception? I’m not aware of any – the whole point of SYG laws is that you have no duty to retreat. I agree with you that exceptions might be a reasonable measure to make sure people don’t shoot first, but the laws seem written to require no more assessment than “this guy’s trying to hurt me”, regardless of who’s responsible for putting you in reach of each other. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3583 "2012-04-10T22:19:07Z")
Ah, but there is a further simplication - the other guy is dead. So, I need only make sure my shot is deadly, then say “self defense” and I am free to go. That’s absolutely insane! Crane ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3584 "2012-04-10T22:39:00Z")
I’m wondering if only one shot is required. A guy can still kill you even if they have a gunshot wound. Michael Myers has taught us this lesson repeatedly. So I’m wondering if a person can claim SYG if they shoot them once and then shoot 'em again, just to make sure. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3585 "2012-04-10T23:08:15Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > How do states without the SYG law do it? I’m no legal expert, but for starters, we need to completely eliminate the presumption of innocence. If a man is dead and the only other witness is the living shooter, the police should not do as in this case and presume innocence and let him go. They need to put him under arrest and investigate the incident from all possible angles. You know, I always wonder about this “put him under arrest” demand. They took Zimmerman to the police station and interrogated him for five hours. If they arrested him, they would have taken him to the police station and interrogated him for five hours, then at some point after that he’d make bail and be out, just like he is now. What exactly is the difference to you? > [@](#): > > How it would apply in this case would be that GZ would have been arrested immediately, booked, and his belongings and everything else confiscated as evidence. Everything that was taken as evidence could be taken as evidence without the arrest. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3586 "2012-04-10T23:16:34Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I think he may be cracking under pressure… Naw, I think he’s just stupid and arrogant. He thinks he can handle this himself. This move is exactly what one would expect from someone who prejudges a stranger in a dark hoodie as suspicious, sics the cops on them, ignores 911 advice not to follow this person, and shoots this person in the heat of the moment. Dude isnt cracking under pressure. He cracked a long ss time ago. Probably congenitally. ---
**Author:** ![PotLuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@PotLuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PotLuck)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3587 "2012-04-10T23:26:15Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m wondering if only one shot is required. > > A guy can still kill you even if they have a gunshot wound. Michael Myers has taught us this lesson repeatedly. So I’m wondering if a person can claim SYG if they shoot them once and then shoot 'em again, just to make sure. I think they can fire twice but the second must be a headshot, per SYG’s “Zombie Resurrection Defense” clause. After all, the shooter doesn’t know if the shoot-ee will rise from the dead, and neither do you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3588 "2012-04-10T23:30:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Oh, I know that. Florida is fucked up beyond repair.Would it make you feel better if i modified my position, and allowed Martin to be prosecuted for assault, had he survived? But that does not absolve Zimmerman of manslaughter, IMO. If Martin punches Zimmerman, and Zimmerman pulls a gun, he is guilty by escalating the severity of the altercation that he is ultimately responsible for initiating. If he has to choose between the risk of dying of a beating, or shooting Martin, I don’t see why that absolves him from legal responsibility for manslaughter. He stuck his nose into someone else’s business without justification; he can either risk whatever injuries the beating inflicts, or be prosecuted for manslaughter if he decides to pull the gun and kill Martin. In no way should we reward vigilante behavior just because he made sure the other party cannot testify against him. But we’re not handicapped (in this hypothetical) by the lack of Martin’s testimony; we know exactly what he’d say. Sticking your nose into someone’s business by asking them what their business is does not mean that you must open yourself to a beating. Let’s change my hypo. In Alternate Universe A, we had Zimmerman approach Martin, demand to know his business, and Martin respond by punching Zimmerman, knocking him down and beating on him, which attack is ended when Zimmerman shoots Martin. Now in Alternate Universe B, again Zimmerman steps up and demands to know Martin’s business, and again Martin punches Zimmerman. This time, Zimmerman returns the punches, gets the upper hand, and the fight ends with Martin knocked unconscious. Should Zimmerman be charged with anything in Alternate Universe B? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3589 "2012-04-10T23:35:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m wondering if only one shot is required. > > A guy can still kill you even if they have a gunshot wound. Michael Myers has taught us this lesson repeatedly. So I’m wondering if a person can claim SYG if they shoot them once and then shoot 'em again, just to make sure. As with many things, it depends. Can it be shown that one shot was fatal? Which one? What would be the time separating the two? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3590 "2012-04-10T23:43:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But we’re not handicapped (in this hypothetical) by the lack of Martin’s testimony; we know exactly what he’d say. > > Sticking your nose into someone’s business by asking them what their business is does not mean that you must open yourself to a beating. If you profile a stranger for no reason, and pursue him through the dark and rain while armed with a gun, you should have some expectation that a beating is a possible outcome. If the beating results, you have the option of running away like a girl (the better part of valor), fight back, or pull your gun. Only the first option should be consequence free. IMO, you started it by violating a person’s peace by actinig like an asshole. > [@](#): > > Now in Alternate Universe B, again Zimmerman steps up and demands to know Martin’s business, and again Martin punches Zimmerman. This time, Zimmerman returns the punches, gets the upper hand, and the fight ends with Martin knocked unconscious. > > Should Zimmerman be charged with anything in Alternate Universe B? He should be charged with assault. He initiated an intrusive contact without cause. And no, I don’t care if an intrusive contact is not illegal. If you violate someone’s peace for no reason, you should bear some responsibility if that contact goes sideways. MYOB. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3591 "2012-04-11T00:15:54Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Can you show an example of a law with any such exception? I’m not aware of any – the whole point of SYG laws is that you have no duty to retreat. I was speaking of exceptions in more [general laws regarding self defense](http://www.liberty-lawyer.com/gunsandfirearms.html). Not Stand Your Ground laws. > [@](#): > > Minnesota’s self-defense law, like many others, contains a “duty to retreat” provision. This means that a person facing a threat has a duty to retreat, where practical, before responding with “reasonable force.” > [@](#): > > What is “reasonable force?” There must be thousands of court cases discussing this, in various situations. It should be obvious that shooting a gun at someone who spit on your shoes would not be reasonable force. Police officers are trained to shoot the center of body mass when shooting in self-defense, and, to shoot a person armed with a knife within a certain distance - and wisely so. That could be reasonable force. In the end, no one wants to be in a position where a jury has to decide “was it reasonable?” given the threat presented at the time. But if you are defending yourself or loved ones from a violent attack, deadly force could be reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3592 "2012-04-11T00:28:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’ll give it another shot. > > Under “normal” rules, self-defense gets used as a defense at trial. Even if a person tells the police a shooting was self-defense, the police don’t need to disprove that claim. The only thing police need to do is find probable cause that Z killed M. Self-defense doesn’t have to enter their calculations. > i > The acci’ve used goes to trial. At trial, the prosecution has to prove the killing. Then the accused has to present his case of self-defense. > > Under the Florida law, all that changes. The police have to find enough evidence to be sure, by probable cause, that self-defense was NOT in play before they can even detain the shooter for questioning. Really? I lived in Florida for 28 years and that isn’t my recollection of how the law works in Florida at all. You read about some home owner killing a burglar and a couple months later you read the the DA isn’t pressing charges. No trial. I’ll google some links if you like. Maybe they do it differently in your state. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3593 "2012-04-11T01:33:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > George Zimmerman provoked the retaliation. Yes, it is OK to pop him in the mouth for acting like an asshole. And no, he cannot pull a gun and blow away anyone who punches him for being a dick. No, it’s not OK to hit people because you don’t like what they said. Surely your parents and teachers taught you this. And bashing someone’s head into the cement repeatedly with no signs of stopping is a life threatening event. People are entitled to defend themselves in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3594 "2012-04-11T01:37:20Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Really? I lived in Florida for 28 years and that isn’t my recollection of how the law works in Florida at all. You read about some home owner killing a burglar and a couple months later you read the the DA isn’t pressing charges. No trial. I’ll google some links if you like. Maybe they do it differently in your state. Really, at least since the passage of FSA 776.032. And your example doesn’t contradict it. If the police – or the DA – don’t find probable cause now, no trial. Before, the police could detain the shooter for questioning at the scene without probable cause and use the information to reach a decision. Nothing mandated they charge a shooter, so sure, a case could still end with no charges pressed. But under this law, the bar to reach before charging is far higher. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3595 "2012-04-11T02:01:31Z")
I also notice that the Special Prosecutor has decided to not call a Grand Jury. This must mean that Murder 1 is off the table. She sez she doesn’t trust the GJ- “too unpredictable”. Yeah, that democracy thing, just too damn unpredictable. :rolleyes:Now I feel that her decision on what charges to file will be based upon the public opinion polls, not the facts or evidence. This is a bad move, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3596 "2012-04-11T02:05:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And bashing someone’s head into the cement repeatedly with no signs of stopping is a life threatening event. The eyewitness said this never happened. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3597 "2012-04-11T02:25:27Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The eyewitness said this never happened. Under oath, right?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3598 "2012-04-11T02:27:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Under oath, right?:dubious: All of Team Zimmerman is doing everything they can to prevent that. Until then, an eyewitness is an eyewitness. Take it or leave it, but that goes for all the witnesses, including Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3599 "2012-04-11T02:43:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Really, at least since the passage of FSA 776.032. > > And your example doesn’t contradict it. If the police – or the DA – don’t find probable cause now, no trial. Before, the police could detain the shooter for questioning at the scene without probable cause and use the information to reach a decision. Nothing mandated they charge a shooter, so sure, a case could still end with no charges pressed. But under this law, the bar to reach before charging is far higher. You don’t think the Sanford police wouldn’t have found some reason detain Zimmerman for questioning if he hadn’t gone with them voluntarily? I was going to pull examples from prior to 2005 for examples. I suspect the problem is that you are reading the ordinances say and I’m reading what what the newspapers say. Since I already showed one case in Florida where the shooter was charged the next day, I don’t think the bar is as high as you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3600 "2012-04-11T03:08:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > All of Team Zimmerman is doing everything they can to prevent that. Until then, an eyewitness is an eyewitness. Take it or leave it, but that goes for all the witnesses, including Zimmerman. What is Team Zimmerman doing? I know, when Zimmerman went to meet with the “tough no nonsense” Prosecutor he brought cookies and now she’s not going to bring charges.:rolleyes: Hey **Bricker** - do witnesses ever change their story once they have to repeat it under oath? How about under cross examination? Do highly publicized cases like this change witness behavior? Do witnesses come forward who really weren’t that that much of a witness with testimony a lot like they heard on the media? Do good witnesses refuse to come forward due to fear or pressure? Do otherwise good witnesses get their testimony colored by what they hear/see in the media?:eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=179) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=181)