# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 181
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3601 "2012-04-11T03:16:46Z")
So now we are to discount all the unsworn testimony by anyone connected this story? In that case, lest’s go over what we have left: No unprovoked attack, no self defense, no fear of impending death; that’s all unsworn. Just an unarmed corpse, and a smoking gun. Is that not enough for a arrest? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3602 "2012-04-11T03:31:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So now we are to discount all the unsworn testimony by anyone connected this story? In that case, lest’s go over what we have left: No unprovoked attack, no self defense, no fear of impending death; that’s all unsworn. Just an unarmed corpse, and a smoking gun. Is that not enough for a arrest? The Zimmerman defenders never mention Chris Serino, however. As in the lead detective in the case. The investigator who questioned Zimmerman and didn’t find his story credible. The man with all the known facts gathered together and who wanted to bring charges but was overruled by by SA Wolfinger. But strangely, some unidentified witness who saw part of the confrontation carries more weight than Chris Serino. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3603 "2012-04-11T03:38:51Z")
The rules for Neighborhood watch are: Don’t carry a weapon Don’t pursue Don’t confront Zimmerman broke all of the rules. He was a loser playing TV Cop. He’s going to play the role to the end. Be his own lawyer. Go on Hannity and appeal to the public for $$$. This is gold for Hannity and he’s going to mine it. Zimmerman might even put in a call to Limbaugh tomorrow. A real fruitcake circus. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3604 "2012-04-11T03:42:39Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > The Zimmerman defenders never mention Chris Serino, however. As in the lead detective in the case. The investigator who questioned Zimmerman and didn’t find his story credible. The man with all the known facts gathered together and who wanted to bring charges but was overruled by by SA Wolfinger. But strangely, some unidentified witness who saw part of the confrontation carries more weight than Chris Serino. Let’s see just one quote from a poster here that supports your claim. Otherwise you’ve just created a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3605 "2012-04-11T03:47:00Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > How do states without the SYG law do it? I’m no legal expert, but for starters, we need to completely eliminate the presumption of innocence. If a man is dead and the only other witness is the living shooter, the police should not do as in this case and presume innocence and let him go. They need to put him under arrest and investigate the incident from all possible angles. How it would apply in this case would be that GZ would have been arrested immediately, booked, and his belongings and everything else confiscated as evidence. The police would canvass for witnesses and do whatever tests they need to do in order to determine if GZ’s side of the story, that he was being straddled and pummeled, holds up. That’s really all I wanted from this case from the beginning. > > The fact that GZ is walking around simply because he shot the only other witness and claimed self defense is not enough justification to let him go. That is my problem with the SYG law. > > If things really happened as he said, after the investigation, he would be freed following police support of his version of the story. But don’t let him get out, go into hiding, put out websites attesting to his innocence without being formally charged first. It seems you have never heard of the concept of “bail.” That is, the only difference between the current situation and your dream situation (as described above) is that in your dream situation, Zimmerman would be out a few hundred or thousand dollars to a bail bondsman. That’s it. ETA: The fact that Zimmerman can’t work right now means that he’s probably out a lot more than he would have been for bail. So actually you really should prefer the present situation over your dream situation–there’s more financial impact to Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3606 "2012-04-11T03:48:49Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You don’t think the Sanford police wouldn’t have found some reason detain Zimmerman for questioning if he hadn’t gone with them voluntarily? > > I was going to pull examples from prior to 2005 for examples. I suspect the problem is that you are reading the ordinances say and I’m reading what what the newspapers say. Since I already showed one case in Florida where the shooter was charged the next day, I don’t think the bar is as high as you think it is. Here is what I’ve found so far. Either the SA said they weren’t going to prosecute or I could find a reference if they did. > **[Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters](http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=3407)** > > Protecting the 2nd Amendment - The Right to Keep And Bear Arms. > **[Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters](http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=3301)** > > Protecting the 2nd Amendment - The Right to Keep And Bear Arms. [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2002-03-23/news/0203230188\_1\_shockey-wince-rifle](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2002-03-23/news/0203230188_1_shockey-wince-rifle) > **[(FL) One For The "Only Cops Should Have Guns" Crowd - The Firing Line Forums](https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105408)** > > (FL) One For The "Only Cops Should Have Guns" Crowd General Discussion Forum > **[Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters](http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=3187)** > > Protecting the 2nd Amendment - The Right to Keep And Bear Arms. > **[Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters](http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=3629)** > > Protecting the 2nd Amendment - The Right to Keep And Bear Arms. BTW, I’ve discovered that the Orlando Sentinel is in the process of putting up a paywall and many newspapers charge for their older articles. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3607 "2012-04-11T03:49:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Let’s see just one quote from a poster here that supports your claim. Otherwise you’ve just created a strawman. You want me to quote a post that contains an omission? Holy shit, ya got me there. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3608 "2012-04-11T03:52:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So now we are to discount all the unsworn testimony by anyone connected this story? In that case, lest’s go over what we have left: No unprovoked attack, no self defense, no fear of impending death; that’s all unsworn. Just an unarmed corpse, and a smoking gun. Is that not enough for a arrest? 5 hr interview of Zimmerman plus the interview of witnesses plus the evidence at hand. An investigation was made. And no, it wasn’t enough for an arrest. What lawyers have tried to explain to you is the difficulty in bringing any kind of charges against Zimmerman. I’ve argued that he could be found, maybe, culpable in his actions leading up to the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3609 "2012-04-11T03:55:07Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > You want me to quote a post that contains an omission? Holy shit, ya got me there. I was thinking the part you should support was the last sentence. But, really, it’s just a strawman, and the fact that it is impossible for you to support the whole thing just proves it. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3610 "2012-04-11T04:27:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I was thinking the part you should support was the last sentence. > > But, really, it’s just a strawman, and the fact that it is impossible for you to support the whole thing just proves it. Have you even read this thread? The unidentified witness called “john” has been cited repeatedly. This is the witness who alleges that Martin was on top of Zimmerman at some point. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3611 "2012-04-11T04:28:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So now we are to discount all the unsworn testimony by anyone connected this story? In that case, lest’s go over what we have left: No unprovoked attack, no self defense, no fear of impending death; that’s all unsworn. Just an unarmed corpse, and a smoking gun. Is that not enough for a arrest? Well, you can take it or leave it. But there’s a little thing called the US Constitution that more or less sez all the unsworn and un-cross-examined stories (not testimony, stories) are not evidence. We don’t know if the attack was provoked or not or who provoked it. We don’t know if there was self-defence, etc. Basically, Zimmerman was brought in and questioned for several hours, “voluntarily”. _At that point in time,_ his story seemed to match closely enough to self-defence that he couldnt be arrested _at that point in time._. He can certainly be arrested later, when the People bring charges. I don’t think you understand how that law works. If his story of self-defense is at all on the face of it credible, the Police MUST let him go, and can’t just “arrest” him. The People have to bring charges- then he can be arrested. And as Rand Rover sez, he’d have just made bail, and the Police would be stuck. In general, unless the dude is a flight risk or a danger, there’s no fucking reason to jump the gun and “arrest him” . Probable cause or no, what happens is that if the evidence there on hand isn’t open and shut the Police hand it over to the DA. Who has the Police gather _all_ the evidence so that the DA can bring charges based upon _all_ the evidence- not just one days worth. And the DA has lots of evidence none of us has seen-like the ME report, ballistics, Zimmerman’s sworn statement (Zimmerman likely signed a statement), medical reports, ballistics, CSI, and so forth. Yeah, there might have been a detective that disagreed with what the local DA and Police Chief thought. So? The thing is, it wouldn’t be his ass being sued. Nor, do “detectives” know the LAW as well as a DA. IMHO, his “testimony” now just shows what a unprofessional schmuck he is. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3612 "2012-04-11T04:32:30Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Have you even read this thread? The unidentified witness called “john” has been cited repeatedly. This is the witness who alleges that Martin was on top of Zimmerman at some point. Cited by "Zimmerman defenders "? Prove it. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3613 "2012-04-11T04:40:12Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > I’m confused. You are certain this is a racially motivated slaying. Premeditated essentially. Which would make the SYG law irrelevant. Yet you think the SYG law should be repealed? Fairly certain, given his history of calling in suspicious black males. And its not just him, the town’s not exactly sparkling clean on the area of race relations either. Plus, the many many unarmed black males who have been killed not just in FL but elsewhere, simply for being suspicious. The SYG law, whether applicable or not to the specifics of the case, is being used by GZ to escape justice, was being used by the Sanford PD to justify not arresting him that night, and is being used by people to say that it was ok for GZ to follow an unarmed kid at night despite the 911 operator telling him not to and taking the law into his own hands. This law gave him the cover he needed to think he could chase down a kid and then shoot him, because without it, I believe people would not be so reckless, in general, as to initiate such confrontation ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3614 "2012-04-11T04:44:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > … Basically, Zimmerman was brought in and questioned for several hours, “voluntarily”. _At that point in time,_ his story seemed to match closely enough to self-defence that he couldnt be arrested _at that point in time._… At that time, the authorities were in dispute as to whether his story matched other facts, if we are to believe the media reports. The lead investigator, who presumably knew the most about the facts, wanted to make an arrest. The state attorney’s office, who presumably knew more about the law, decided an arrest wasn’t feasible. I’m gonna go ahead and make a prediction about the special prosecutor’s upcoming announcement. I predict she is NOT going to charge Zimmerman, not because of the facts of the case, but because of the ways the law has been interpreted in previous cases. I also predict she will call on the state legislature to review and revise the law to prevent it from being used as a shield in the future. I agree with Bricker that the law is poorly written. As a result of that, even though in a world of perfect justice Zimmerman deserves punishment, he won’t get it. And I’d say it’s a less than even chance the legislature will change anything. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3615 "2012-04-11T04:47:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Er, no. Just, no. It always is, and must remain, the job of the state to prove someone is guilty before they are punished. Otherwise, we might as well lock you up as well. I mean, I don’t have to presume innocence, and you’re probably guilty of something. We’re not in a courtroom so you can save your presumption of innocence. The police do not have that obligation, that’s why they approach every car they pull over with one hand on their gun, that’s why lawyers tell you know to talk to them without an attorney present, in case they get something out of you that you shouldn’t have said. > [@Steophan](#): > > What benefit would be gained by having Zimmerman locked up now, that would not also be gained by locking him up after a trial, if it turns out he’s guilty? Placating a violent, ignorant mob is not an acceptable answer here. For one thing, flight risk ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3616 "2012-04-11T04:47:48Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > …despite the 911 operator telling him not to … We keep explaining that the 911 operator has no legal authority to “tell” anyone not to do anything. And they are trained to always tell everyone to not do anything until the police get there. Honestly, if the caller was telling the 911 operator that there was a dude taking a chainsaw to a pile of babies, the operator would say “stay on the line, don’t do anything until the police get there”. This is drilled into them over and over and over. They are\* not \*the police. The 911 operators instructions have\* no significance at all \*in this case. Got it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3617 "2012-04-11T04:50:37Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > At that time, the authorities were in dispute as to whether his story matched other facts, if we are to believe the media reports. The lead investigator, who presumably knew the most about the facts, wanted to make an arrest. The state attorney’s office, who presumably knew more about the law, decided an arrest wasn’t feasible. > > I’m gonna go ahead and make a prediction about the special prosecutor’s upcoming announcement. I predict she is NOT going to charge Zimmerman, not because of the facts of the case, but because of the ways the law has been interpreted in previous cases. I also predict she will call on the state legislature to review and revise the law to prevent it from being used as a shield in the future. I agree with Bricker that the law is poorly written. As a result of that, even though in a world of perfect justice Zimmerman deserves punishment, he won’t get it. > > And I’d say it’s a less than even chance the legislature will change anything. Sure. It’s quite possible. But like you said, the DA knows the law- and their job could be on the line for a bad call. The detective-\* not so much\*. After all, the buck doesn’t stop with him. I predict she will charge Zimmerman with Manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3618 "2012-04-11T04:52:11Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > For one thing, flight risk If Zimmerman was a flight risk, he’d be in jail now. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3619 "2012-04-11T04:52:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Cited by "Zimmerman defenders "? Prove it. [http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole\_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation](http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation) Play the video. ‘John’ is about 30 seconds in. This video was the day after the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3620 "2012-04-11T04:54:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Cited by "Zimmerman defenders "? Prove it. OK, sure. It’s all here in my cite: > **[Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=644910)** > > Story here. Synopsis: A teenager visiting relatives in a gated community is seen by the neighborhood watch captain, who calls 911 to report a “suspicious person”. The operator tells the captain not to do anything and just wait for the police to... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=180) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=182)