# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 182
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3621 "2012-04-11T05:00:26Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > [http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole\_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation](http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation) > > Play the video. ‘John’ is about 30 seconds in. This video was the day after the shooting. Yeah, we know. There are “witnesses” on both sides, none of which are worth crap until they are sworn in, etc. I am a equal opportunity cynic & doubter here. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3622 "2012-04-11T05:01:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure. It’s quite possible. But like you said, the DA knows the law- and their job could be on the line for a bad call. The detective-\* not so much\*. After all, the buck doesn’t stop with him. > > I predict she will charge Zimmerman with Manslaughter. I think Zimmerman would already be under arrest if she had decided to arrest him – assuming the cops know where to find him. Since this thread is filled with wild guesses, let me throw in another. She’s delaying her announcement in order to call import a very heavy contingent of state police into Sanford out of concern there will be an outbreak of violence. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3623 "2012-04-11T05:01:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If Zimmerman was a flight risk, he’d be in jail now. According to his former lawyers, he’s now no longer in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3624 "2012-04-11T05:26:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, we know. There are “witnesses” on both sides, none of which are worth crap until they are sworn in, etc. I am a equal opportunity cynic & doubter here. I think it is worth little more than crap. Lying to police investigators is a fairly serious offense and there is no obvious motive. Of course lying to reporters isn’t a crime at all, but how was ‘John’ to know the next day that this would be a huge story? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3625 "2012-04-11T05:28:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We keep explaining that the 911 operator has no legal authority to “tell” anyone not to do anything. And they are trained to always tell everyone to not do anything until the police get there. Honestly, if the caller was telling the 911 operator that there was a dude taking a chainsaw to a pile of babies, the operator would say “stay on the line, don’t do anything until the police get there”. This is drilled into them over and over and over. They are\* not \*the police. > > The 911 operators instructions have\* no significance at all \*in this case. Got it? Of course the 911 operator is significant. It shows GZ’s tendency to initiate conflict instead of backing away. Following a guy at night isn’t the actions of a person who was cornered and frightened into shooting in self-defense. It is the actions of a person who likely thought of himself as some kind of justified vigilante carrying out street justice. Everything about the actions he took after the 911 operator told him to not follow Trayvon does not speak to an innocent man. Ask yourself this: if someone followed another person and shot him despite warnings not to, would you be more likely to believe the shooter’s version of the tale or not? > [@DrDeth](#): > > If Zimmerman was a flight risk, he’d be in jail now. And if you read my post, you’d see that the very reason why he’s not in jail is because the Sanford PD fell behind the defense of the SYG law. And did you even see the news conference by GZ’s former attorneys? They don’t even know where he is!! You think that’s not a flight risk? The man could be in Mexico by now and nobody would know. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3626 "2012-04-11T05:35:25Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You don’t think the Sanford police wouldn’t have found some reason detain Zimmerman for questioning if he hadn’t gone with them voluntarily? > > I was going to pull examples from prior to 2005 for examples. I suspect the problem is that you are reading the ordinances say and I’m reading what what the newspapers say. Since I already showed one case in Florida where the shooter was charged the next day, I don’t think the bar is as high as you think it is. Did Brad Lippincott assert self-defense? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3627 "2012-04-11T05:36:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So now we are to discount all the unsworn testimony by anyone connected this story? In that case, lest’s go over what we have left: No unprovoked attack, no self defense, no fear of impending death; that’s all unsworn. Just an unarmed corpse, and a smoking gun. Is that not enough for a arrest? No. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3628 "2012-04-11T05:38:41Z")
I’m curious. If Zimmerman is dead now, would the Civil Immunity part of the the SYG law still apply to his estate? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3629 "2012-04-11T06:12:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Did Brad Lippincott assert self-defense? Angela Corey said he did. > [@](#): > > She pointed to a Jacksonville shooting two weeks ago, in which the man who pulled the trigger is white and the man who was killed was black. During an apparent road rage incident, Kahron Ali Warnke got into a shouting match with Brad Lippincott while the two were driving. Police say Lippincott pulled out a gun and shot Warnke several times, killing him, and then called 911. > > “We have charged that man,” Corey said. “ **And he’s claiming self-defense** , claiming he was in fear. We charged him. And if he fights it on Stand Your Ground, we’re going to fight back.” [http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/tough-minded-prosecutor-in-spotlight-on-trayvon-martin-2266419.html?viewAsSinglePage=true](http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/tough-minded-prosecutor-in-spotlight-on-trayvon-martin-2266419.html?viewAsSinglePage=true) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3630 "2012-04-11T06:56:25Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Angela Corey said he did. > > [http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/tough-minded-prosecutor-in-spotlight-on-trayvon-martin-2266419.html?viewAsSinglePage=true](http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/tough-minded-prosecutor-in-spotlight-on-trayvon-martin-2266419.html?viewAsSinglePage=true) And from your link, apparently Angela Corey agrees with what I said about the law setting the bar higher: > [@](#): > > Corey has tried several so-called “affirmative defense” cases during her career, and said Stand Your Ground can make prosecution more difficult, though not impossible. In the Lippincott case, I don’t know what evidence she had. But I guarantee her prosecution will be more difficult than it would be without that law. ---
**Author:** ![xanthous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/53a042/32.png) [@xanthous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthous)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3631 "2012-04-11T10:56:22Z")
So I’ve just read that Zimmerman’s lawyers have resigned, stating they don’t know where he is but that he’s “far away,” “probably suffering from post-traumatic stress,” and it appears that Zimmerman spoke off the record to Fox’s Sean Hannity. And the special prosecutor will be making a statement before long. > **[George Zimmerman charged, hearing expected Thursday | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2012/04/11/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?iphoneemail)** > > George Zimmerman is in custody, charged with second-degree murder in the death of Trayvon Martin, a special prosecutor said Wednesday. W.T.F. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3632 "2012-04-11T12:57:19Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Of course the 911 operator is significant. It shows GZ’s tendency to initiate conflict instead of backing away. Following a guy at night isn’t the actions of a person who was cornered and frightened into shooting in self-defense. It is the actions of a person who likely thought of himself as some kind of justified vigilante carrying out street justice. Everything about the actions he took after the 911 operator told him to not follow Trayvon does not speak to an innocent man. Ask yourself this: if someone followed another person and shot him despite warnings not to, would you be more likely to believe the shooter’s version of the tale or not? > > And if you read my post, you’d see that the very reason why he’s not in jail is because the Sanford PD fell behind the defense of the SYG law. And did you even see the news conference by GZ’s former attorneys? They don’t even know where he is!! You think that’s not a flight risk? The man could be in Mexico by now and nobody would know. 1. The 911 call is certainly important and significant. But the instructions of the 911 operator have no legal force or standing. 2. Yes,\*\* Bricker\*\* and I said something like that many pages ago, except that it wasn’t SYG, it’s self-defence. They are no longer his attorneys, they called the conf to announce they quit. Do note that one reason they quit is that Zimmerman met & talked to the Special Prosecutor on his own, without them (and it wasn’t in Mexico, either). Zimmerman has been in hiding. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3633 "2012-04-11T13:26:59Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Of course the 911 operator is significant. It shows GZ’s tendency to initiate conflict instead of backing away. Following a guy at night isn’t the actions of a person who was cornered and frightened into shooting in self-defense. It is the actions of a person who likely thought of himself as some kind of justified vigilante carrying out street justice. Everything about the actions he took after the 911 operator told him to not follow Trayvon does not speak to an innocent man. Ask yourself this: if someone followed another person and shot him despite warnings not to, would you be more likely to believe the shooter’s version of the tale or not? I’d say the fact doesn’t sway my assessment of credibility one way or another. The problem, **Yog** , is that we can’t import your sensibilities about carrying guns and following advice into the law retroactively. You claim that the action Zimmerman took, following Martin after the dispatcher told him that wasn’t needed, suggest he isn’t innocent. I disagree: those actions are perfectly legal. Just because you think they’re bad ideas does not transform them into illegal actions. You’ve also mentioned, in earlier posts, the general history in Florida and the rest of the country of violence against blacks as a reason to infer Zimmerman’s guilt. This, too, is not an acceptable inference. We can’t convict Zimmerman because of acts taken by other people at other times in other states. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3634 "2012-04-11T13:29:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree: those actions are perfectly legal. Just because you think they’re bad ideas does not transform them into illegal actions. Flimsy strawman. Actions need not be illegal to be very revealing about intent and motive. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3635 "2012-04-11T13:35:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > …Do note that one reason they quit is that Zimmerman met & talked to the Special Prosecutor on his own, without them (and it wasn’t in Mexico, either). Zimmerman has been in hiding. Zimmerman did not meet or talk to the special prosecutor. He attempt reach her by phone, and she refused to take the call because, at the time, Zimmerman was still represented by his lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3636 "2012-04-11T13:47:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Flimsy strawman. Actions need not be illegal to be very revealing about intent and motive. True. But I don’t agree that Zimmerman can be inferred to have any illegal intent or motive by any of his actions. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3637 "2012-04-11T13:56:27Z")
A few questions for **Bricker** that have nothing to do with Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence or even really the events that happened that night. Just curious what he as a lawyer thinks about this: How much was this guy hurting himself by not contacting his lawyers for 48 hours? Two days doesn’t really seem that long an amount of time, though I suppose in a high profile case like this, you’d want to stay in constant contact, especially if a prosecutor is just days away from making a decision on how to proceed. Also, how much is he hurting himself by setting up a Web site, and reaching out to the special prosecutor (and apparently Sean Hannity), without his legal counsel present? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3638 "2012-04-11T13:56:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And from your link, apparently Angela Corey agrees with what I said about the law setting the bar higher: > > In the Lippincott case, I don’t know what evidence she had. But I guarantee her prosecution will be more difficult than it would be without that law. The trouble is **more** is not a quantifiable amount. The fact that she could arrest Lippincott the next day implies it is more like 10% more difficult and not 1000%. It isn’t clear to me that there is an optimal level of difficulty. Making prosecutor’s jobs easy was obviously not the top priority of the people who wrote the law. I suspect a clever SA could avoid many problems by charging manslaughter as a standalone charge and proceeding on the other issues with a different indictment. Issues like illegal carry or illegal possession of a firearm could be a separate charge. Back to my original point. Except for the civil immunity, it isn’t really obvious to me that this case would have been that different back in 2004. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3639 "2012-04-11T14:39:03Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > How much was this guy hurting himself by not contacting his lawyers for 48 hours? Two days doesn’t really seem that long an amount of time, though I suppose in a high profile case like this, you’d want to stay in constant contact, especially if a prosecutor is just days away from making a decision on how to proceed. It depends. Frankly, as a PD, my problem was seldom clients that didn’t stay in touch, but rather clients that called fifty times a week, not seeming to understand that (a) I had other clients and (b) things happen when they happen. But of course I never had any high-visibility cases like this one. So I suspect the issue isn’t the time lag itself, but rather not keeping an agreed-upon contact. If he said he was going to call Monday at 8:00 AM, and hasn’t called 48 hours after that, it’s a little serious. And of course it’s far easier to withdraw as as counsel now, when there is no pending case, than it would be after you’ve filed an appearance on behalf of someone that’s not going to follow your instructions. > [@](#): > > Also, how much is he hurting himself by setting up a Web site, and reaching out to the special prosecutor (and apparently Sean Hannity), without his legal counsel present? I don’t think the web site is a big deal, assuming he makes no admissions on it. The independent attempt to talk to Corey is a huge deal. He has no idea what he should and shouldn’t say. In my view, he is making every effort to talk himself into a jail cell. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3640 "2012-04-11T14:50:56Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The trouble is **more** is not a quantifiable amount. The fact that she could arrest Lippincott the next day implies it is more like 10% more difficult and not 1000%. It isn’t clear to me that there is an optimal level of difficulty. Making prosecutor’s jobs easy was obviously not the top priority of the people who wrote the law. But without knowing the specifics of the evidence she had against Lippincott, how can you possibly say that? > [@](#): > > I suspect a clever SA could avoid many problems by charging manslaughter as a standalone charge and proceeding on the other issues with a different indictment. Issues like illegal carry or illegal possession of a firearm could be a separate charge. No, as a general rule, when the offenses are based on the same act or transaction or on two or more connected acts or transactions, they have to be tried together. This is required both by the prohibition against double jeopardy and a related principle known as _collateral estoppel_. In _Grady v. Corbin_, 495 U.S. 508 (1990), the Supreme Court said: > [@SCOTUS](#): > > We hold that the Double Jeopardy Clause bars a subsequent prosecution if, to establish an essential element of an offense charged in that prosecution, the government will prove conduct that constitutes an offense for which the defendant has already been prosecuted. > [@](#): > > Back to my original point. Except for the civil immunity, it isn’t really obvious to me that this case would have been that different back in 2004. Maybe not. But here’s a possibility: suppose the police had enough evidence to give rise to probable cause that a crime was committed by Zimmerman. They didn’t have enough evidence about the force he used, specifically, but could point to enough facts to support probable cause for the killing as a whole. In 2003, he could have been arrested. Not today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=181) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=183)